Liberty Dollar Files Lawsuit against U.S. Mint, Treasury, and AG

[AurumAg]

Your urgent assistance is requested:

On Tuesday, March 20, 2007 the Liberty Dollar filed suit against the U.S. Mint in U.S. District Court in Evansville Indiana . The organization asked the court to declare that the use of the Liberty Dollar is not a ‘federal crime,’ as claimed by the U.S. Mint. And the organization further asked the court to enter a permanent injunction against the U.S. Mint requiring it to remove any reference that the use of Liberty Dollars is a federal crime from its website.

Of course the US Mint allegation is not the law, in fact, it is a lie. The federal lawsuit Bernard von NotHaus individually and d/b/a Liberty Dollar v. Henry M. Paulson, Jr, Secretary of the Treasury, Alberto R. Gonzales, Attorney General of the United States, and Edmond C. Moy, Director, United States Mint can be viewed by clicking the link.

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/lawsuit.htm

Trust me, this lawsuit is no small matter. Nor is the cost. Initially estimated at $100,000 – we simply have no idea what the actual total cost will be. But it is not cheap to sue the US government that makes their money out of thin air and pays their attorneys with your income tax dollars.

Please let me be blunt, honest and to the point: We need your help, please. For more info and to make a small donation to this important case, please click HERE.

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/legalissues.htm

I know not how you may decide but for me: Give me Liberty Dollars – or give me death. For it is only by banding together and adopting a free and independent currency which provides us with “just weights and measures” will we be able to throw off the yoke of a manipulated monetary/tax system and generate a peaceful and prosperous society.

Thank you again for all your efforts to return America to value – one dollar at a time!



Bernard von NotHaus

Monetary Architect

www.LibertyDollar.org

888.LIB.DOLLAR

888.421.6181

[mjk1971]

Von KnotHead is going to be squashed. What an idiot.

You CANNOT put "Dollar" on a piece of metal and then circulate it for payment of debts/merchandise, and expect to get away with it.

Using the term "Dollar" on a coin-like object IS a Federal crime, and such action has been so long before the Federal Reserve scam was concocted.

[mjk1971]

Legal basis of US Mint claims:


TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 25 > § 485

§ 485. Coins or bars

Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.



TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 25 > § 489

§ 489. Making or possessing likeness of coins

Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title.


It is undeniable that "Trust in God," the faux transsexual-like "Peace Dollar" profile, and generally, most of the "Liberty Dollar," is intended to give one the impression of "United States coin."

Von KnotHead could have solved ALL of this issue by simply offering a Silver Round with a unique design, and avoiding the use of "dollar" or obvious plagarism of the national motto.

Merriam-Webster definition of "similitude":

similitude
One entry found for similitude.
Main Entry: si·mil·i·tude
Pronunciation: s&-'mi-l&-"tüd, -"tyüd
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, allegory, analogy, from Latin similitudo resemblance, from similis
1 a : COUNTERPART, DOUBLE b : a visible likeness : IMAGE
2 : an imaginative comparison : SIMILE
3 a : correspondence in kind or quality b : a point of comparison

[Horn]

What about Wall-Mart Dollars?

Definitions of dollar on the Web:

the basic monetary unit in many countries; equal to 100 cents

[mjk1971]

What about Wall-Mart Dollars?

Definitions of dollar on the Web:

the basic monetary unit in many countries; equal to 100 cents

What about "one ounce fine silver"?

[RiverRat]

:9536: Apparently their legal council is as dumb as a bag of rocks.

Even a newbie at GIM could do a better job of defending their position than whoever they hired to represent them.

If they are filing a lawsuit for the publicity factor they are in for a shock.

The Treasury boys will eat them for breakfast...might even jail all of them for good measure just for spite.

Snowball in hell comes to mind...

:yes: :yes: :yes:

[Horn]

So what was with the deal about chain stores accepting Mexican Pesos in Texas.

Perhaps he could make his money back suing them?

Anyway the term "use" has a wide interpretation.

[TonyG]

Somewhere, I've seen a court ruling saying that both sides of the round had to be a counterfeit attempt in order to be illegal. The backside with all the norfed and liberty dollar writing shouldn't be considered a counterfeit attempt. But the use of the $ should have been clarifed by the words 'suggested trade value' or average market value or some similar wording.

They (the lib dollar organization) have statements from the Mint and other places that they have no problem with the use of the paper warehouse reciepts. And they (liberty dollar)have interacted with several federal reserve banks over the years that have not come against the lib dollar before. This could be used in favor of the lib dollar's defense. In a sense, the fed reserve banks refusal to come against them in the past could have been viewed as sanctioning them.

We had a discussion at one lib dollar meeting and the point was brought up that If a Govt agency makes a published statement against some entity or organization weather lawfully acurate or inacurate, that statement in itself would become the ruling of law. So basically the Lib dollar needed to file suit and should have arranged things differently earlier.

One order of logic would be that if the Mint actually believed that the Lib dollar was a counterfeit attempt that all RCO's/ associates and Bernard would have been issued summons or arrested several years ago or in this fall at the latest.

There has only been one actual arrest of an associate to date and it occured only at the end of last month.

I'll agree that the program has some parts of it that seem 'scamish' and profiteering but on the other hand, associates and RCO's are instructed to never represent the "specie", as 'coin' or U.S. Govt money but rather as a private and voluntary method of barter with the $20 being the suggested average market and real value of the silver content.

Personally, I never offer the Lib dollar without the cashier fully understanding that they will not be able to deposit it with their bank deposit, but that they should offer it as change or buy it from their employer for fed reserve notes. Most times, I get refused, and I want it that way, but I use the interaction as a educational tool about the metal value of our coins and the federal reserve system.

Jason Hommel who has become wealthy by investing in PM's with a focus on Silver has a different plan in which 10% would be added to the spot price and then that would be rounded up to the nearest $ as a value standard of bartering with one ounce pure rounds. This, woudl in my opinion be a more equitable monetary plan.

The legal representation of the Lib dollar are no slouches. I dont' know their names, but they have equal or better status and education than the legal council who made the statements for the Mint. And their are other upstanding legal council connected to RCO's who have advised similarly.

In fact there are lib dollar programs that have been attempting to lobby states to use the lib dollar format as state monetary systems. These programs have been openly offered to state governments for several years and have not come under previous attack or questioned of their legality by state agencies.

It is possible that mjk1971, you are confusing your view of the Lib dollar as a profiteering MLM scam with the actual legalities at hand. I think the lib dollar is the only private monetary system being attacked by the mint and other ones such as the 'silver trade unit' and the phoenix dollar aren't in focus, thus it seems that the face of the coin is the focus of the Mints claims. If that be the case, then the question would be if the Lib dollar program used another symbol on the face, such as Nothaus's image, would it be 'legal' in the Mints eyes?

I think the Lib dollar program has enough positive points to it, AND that the Mint itself has a weak argument based on the fact that the reverse side of the 'specie' isnt' designed to be counterfeit AND that all current literature highly stresses that the rounds are never to be represented as 'legal tender' or U.S. money but rather as a alternative barter that is designed to hold it's value against inflation and designed to be put into circulation along with 'regular' money.

If the people would be given a choice to use silver rounds worth 75% of their face value or dollar coins worth 5% of thier face value, which do you suppose they would choose? And I think this is the real reason the Mint is coming against the use of the lib dollar. It's because the profit (that was never meant to be) would be taken away from the Mint.

I think the Lib dollar is at least worth not slamming and hoping for the Mint to triumph in this case.

There is one dark side to this; If Nothaus would be some kind of govt agent, LOL, and this would be a ploy of the Mint, and the fed reserve to create law against any type of private monetary barter system, other than U.S. Mint and Federal Reserve Scamoney, then they pulled off a good conspiracy. But the literature and education against the Federal Reserve indicates otherwise. So which do we support? An attempt at getting silver/gold back into our system or fed reserve/us mint profitteering.

HOPEFULLY, this won't result in a ban of any future better ideas of private barter systems using PM's.

TG

[The Great Ag]

Hey, Mjk1971:

Read the code you posted more closely. Section 485 pertains only to "coins." I have place the word "coins" in red to illustrate this point. NORFED has never claimed the silver or gold Liberty's were ever "coins." Rather the Libertys have always been a "private barter currency."

It comes down to definitions, is the Liberty a "coin" or not. If not, then there is no crime. However, if the court decides the Liberty is a "coin" then the days of the Liberty dollar are pretty much gone.

The second section of code pertains ONLY to "coins" brought into the US.

I think the NotHaus has a very good chance of winning the case.

Even if you think the LD is a "scam" the concept of private barter needs support! If the LD is found to be a "coin" then any other tokens (alternative currencies) used for bartering will also be illegal. An unalienable right will have been trampled upon.

If you do not want to contribute then give some positive thoughts towards the LD, please.

The Great Ag

[I]TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 25 > § 485

§ 485. Coins or bars

Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.



TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 25 > § 489

§ 489. Making or possessing likeness of coins

Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title.

[mozkill]

I dont see anything wrong with minting "Liberty Ameros" do you??? It would be more legal than "Liberty Dollar", IMHO.

[AurumAg]

Von KnotHead is going to be squashed. What an idiot.

You CANNOT put "Dollar" on a piece of metal and then circulate it for payment of debts/merchandise, and expect to get away with it.

Using the term "Dollar" on a coin-like object IS a Federal crime, and such action has been so long before the Federal Reserve scam was concocted.

In accordance with the Coinage Act of 1792, and hundreds of years prior to the United States original laws regarding money, a dollar is defined as a measured quantity of silver: in this case 371.25 grains of pure Ag.

How many U.S. Coins in circulation today actually meet this criteria? How many FRNs is a silver dollar worth?

I think this case will be BIG, because it will force the issue of legally defining currency, and at the same time expose the REAL scam artists.

Time and tide will ultimately provide...

[mjk1971]

Hey, Mjk1971:

Read the code you posted more closely. Section 485 pertains only to "coins." I have place the word "coins" in red to illustrate this point. NORFED has never claimed the silver or gold Liberty's were ever "coins." Rather the Libertys have always been a "private barter currency."

It comes down to definitions, is the Liberty a "coin" or not. If not, then there is no crime. However, if the court decides the Liberty is a "coin" then the days of the Liberty dollar are pretty much gone.

The second section of code pertains ONLY to "coins" brought into the US.

I think the NotHaus has a very good chance of winning the case.

Even if you think the LD is a "scam" the concept of private barter needs support! If the LD is found to be a "coin" then any other tokens (alternative currencies) used for bartering will also be illegal. An unalienable right will have been trampled upon.

If you do not want to contribute then give some positive thoughts towards the LD, please.

The Great Ag

I will remain a firm opponent of the fraudulent "Liberty Dollar" and shall continue to expose facts related to the multi-level marketing scam that is behind it, and which attracts individuals with unearned profits to irrationally defend it.

However, I will continue to support unconditionally HONEST money, which is gold & silver bullion, in whatever honest form it may take, including truthfully-marked bars, rounds, or actual coins.

My interpretation of the United States Code is correct. Von KnotHead can claim his product is not a coin all he wants. The fact remains, and is prima facie, that he modeled the "Liberty Dollar" on UNITED STATES COINS and therefore constitutes a violation of the cited USC sections.

He is an absolute imbecile, and will surely be trounced if he doesn't drop this lawsuit pronto.

I shall say this again: all that need be done is stop use of "Dollar," "Trust in God," and other distinguishing features of circulating US coins, and he's got himself a legitimate silver round. Even if he continues the dishonest MLM scam.


PS: the CORRECT reading of the USC --

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 25 > § 485

§ 485. Coins or bars

Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.


(the phrase "coin or bar" is clearly intending to refer to an object that appears to the reasonable person to be a "coin" or bar, and shysteresque sophistry about "barter medium" or "barter currency" does not change this fact --mjk)



TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 25 > § 489

§ 489. Making or possessing likeness of coins

Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title.

[mjk1971]

In accordance with the Coinage Act of 1792, and hundreds of years prior to the United States original laws regarding money, a dollar is defined as a measured quantity of silver: in this case 371.25 grains of pure Ag.


This is not correct. In 1900, the bimetal standard for the dollar was dropped, at which point a "dollar" was legally the equivalent of 23.22 grains of gold. In 1933, this was reduced to 13.71 grains. In 1975, no more PM / dollar conversion.

If we look at USC Title 31, Section 5112, we see that gold is "officially" regarded as "$50 dollars per ounce." Hence, 31.1035 / 50 = .62207 grams of gold. Or 9.599 grains.

Of course, a "Dollar" was originally a "Thaler," short for the place where the coins were originally made, Joachimsthal, Bohemia. "Grains" were not used by the continental Europeans, and therefore your claim is not factual ("hundreds of years prior").



How many U.S. Coins in circulation today actually meet this criteria? How many FRNs is a silver dollar worth?


None, but this is irrelevant.

We are NOT discussing the WEIGHT or composition of the so-called "Liberty Dollar," but the purposefully misleading design and terminology used on it.



I think this case will be BIG, because it will force the issue of legally defining currency, and at the same time expose the REAL scam artists.

Time and tide will ultimately provide...

The only thing "big" out of this case will be the prison sentence for von KnotHead if he persists in pushing the issue. Further, there will be NO legal benefit from this case, as it is so with these fools who claim there's "no law" requiring an income tax...

WE USE DOLLARS (and pay income tax) because THEY have more guns than we do!

[Anty Ep]

Von KnotHead is going to be squashed. What an idiot.

You CANNOT put "Dollar" on a piece of metal and then circulate it for payment of debts/merchandise, and expect to get away with it.

Using the term "Dollar" on a coin-like object IS a Federal crime, and such action has been so long before the Federal Reserve scam was concocted.

agreed.

the chutzpah here is where they solicit gifts and donations to aid them in their sure-to-fail business lawsuit.

a business asking customers for gifts. normally, that would provoke laughter.

now you know why we sometimes call such operators "paytriots."

[Anty Ep]

I will remain a firm opponent of the fraudulent "Liberty Dollar" and shall continue to expose facts related to the multi-level marketing scam that is behind it, and which attracts individuals with unearned profits to irrationally defend it.

However, I will continue to support unconditionally HONEST money, which is gold & silver bullion, in whatever honest form it may take, including truthfully-marked bars, rounds, or actual coins.

My interpretation of the United States Code is correct. Von KnotHead can claim his product is not a coin all he wants. The fact remains, and is prima facie, that he modeled the "Liberty Dollar" on UNITED STATES COINS and therefore constitutes a violation of the cited USC sections.

He is an absolute imbecile, and will surely be trounced if he doesn't drop this lawsuit pronto.
....

I applaud your excellent informational posts in this thread. Our circles need more accountability. It's clear thinking like this that brings it. You would be getting major rep right now if that feature were enabled. :top:

[Kahlil Gibran]

I will remain a firm opponent of the fraudulent "Liberty Dollar" and shall continue to expose facts related to the multi-level marketing scam that is behind it, and which attracts individuals with unearned profits to irrationally defend it.

In the new GIMer Newbie Section there should be a warning about this fraud.

:congrats:

[mjk1971]

I applaud your excellent informational posts in this thread. Our circles need more accountability. It's clear thinking like this that brings it. You would be getting major rep right now if that feature were enabled. :top:

My pleasure! :beer:

[mjk1971]

In the new GIMer Newbie Section there should be a warning about this fraud.

:congrats:

Agreed!

Although I'm not so sure "Liberty Dollars" will exist in a few months...like von KnotHead's other scams, such as the pompously-named & privately-held "Royal" Hawaiian Mint.

[eric2075]

Would Liberty Dollars be honest if they had a face value of 1.29?

[Kahlil Gibran]

Would Liberty Dollars be honest if they had a face value of 1.29?

"Liberty Dollar" and "Honest" in the same sentence.

25763

[mjk1971]

Would Liberty Dollars be honest if they had a face value of 1.29?

They'd be "honest" if they were labeled "Liberty Silver" and were sold for, say, 50 cents above spot.

Right now, they're sold for over $6.00 premium (i.e., one ounce silver round for $20.00 FRNs). I can get sealed one-ounce JM bars or MS SAEs for less!

[RossL]

Would Liberty Dollars be honest if they had a face value of 1.29?

They would be honest if they didn't have a face value, and stated the weight and fineness.

That is their true worth.

The face value is a misrepresentation. and yes, the federal reserve does a likewise misrepresentation. That doesn't make it OK for Liberty Dollar or the Fed.

:mad_m:

[AurumAg]

They'd be "honest" if they were labeled "Liberty Silver" and were sold for, say, 50 cents above spot.

Right now, they're sold for over $6.00 premium (i.e., one ounce silver round for $20.00 FRNs). I can get sealed one-ounce JM bars or MS SAEs for less!

You are adamantly opposed to the Liberty Dollar, which certainly is your right, but I am curious as to why you won't answer my questions regarding the value of a dollar in relation to a $1 face value FRN. It is highly relevant, not only to this discussion, as well as the formation of the Constitutional, representative republic known as the United States, and also the key reason that the Liberty Dollar has been in business for 8 years.

Claiming that diluting the value of a dollar somehow makes it the law, is nothing more than Orwellian doublespeak, in that the very group who profits from debasing the dollar, can also manufacture, literally from thin air, enough FRNs in order to pay-off the politicians who alter the U.S. Code, hired guns to enforce their new "laws," as well as the media organs who "educate" the populace.

I understand your argument that you can obtain silver at spot +, and again, you and everyone else on this board possesses that right, at least for now.

BUT, to understand the Liberty Dollar, is to understand a monetary system which includes gold, silver (soon copper), paper currency, electronic currency, and the transparency, accountability, and honesty of conveying exactly what our monetary product consists of.

Can anyone quote me the date that the Federal Reserve was last independently audited?

The Liberty Dollar is NOT an MLM, a structure for which I have tremendous disdain. It consists of two levels, RCO and Associate, both of whom can potentially profit as they distribute Libertys and educate the vast majority of individuals who have never comprehended money, simply because the folks who produce FRNs do not want people to understand the machinations of monetary production.

So, go ahead and buy PMs at spot +, and go ahead and spout "the law" as it has been perverted and our money debased from gold and silver to its present form of cotton and electrons, but please do not bad-mouth the Liberty Dollar until you have done more diligence in your research.

I find the vehement opposition to this free-market business a bit perplexing, in that the folks on this board tend to have a far better uderstanding of monetary metals than most.

Maybe you had a bad experience with the Liberty Dollar? A Personal grudge with someone involved perhaps?

Nevertheless, I welcome further topical discussion, and hope that I can allay any mis-conceptions regarding the Liberty Dollar.

[Anty Ep]

.........The Liberty Dollar is NOT an MLM, a structure for which I have tremendous disdain. It consists of two levels, RCO and Associate, both of whom can potentially profit as they distribute Libertys and educate the vast majority of individuals who have never comprehended money, simply because the folks who produce FRNs do not want people to understand the machinations of monetary production.

...........
Nevertheless, I welcome further topical discussion, and hope that I can allay any mis-conceptions regarding the Liberty Dollar.

Please tell us how you know this about the profitmaking aspects of the liberty dollar thing. Thanks.

[AurumAg]

Please tell us how you know this about the profitmaking aspects of the liberty dollar thing. Thanks.

I am a Liberty Associate and Merchant. I have a storefront, and I hand out Libertys as change, as well as accept them in payment for my products and services.

[mjk1971]

You are adamantly opposed to the Liberty Dollar, which certainly is your right, but I am curious as to why you won't answer my questions regarding the value of a dollar in relation to a $1 face value FRN.


This is dissemblance. I have addressed what, legally, a "dollar" is, and have made it clear that I understand and believe an FRN is worth nothing.

It is highly relevant, not only to this discussion, as well as the formation of the Constitutional, representative republic known as the United States, and also the key reason that the Liberty Dollar has been in business for 8 years.


Von KnotHead has been in business for decades, actually, because he has found FOOLS to fall for his game, and co-conspirators to collect yet more fools.



Claiming that diluting the value of a dollar somehow makes it the law, is nothing more than Orwellian doublespeak, in that the very group who profits from debasing the dollar, can also manufacture, literally from thin air, enough FRNs in order to pay-off the politicians who alter the U.S. Code, hired guns to enforce their new "laws," as well as the media organs who "educate" the populace.


Huh?

The United States Code IS "law," and if you don't like that, talk to the Congress. The Constitution does NOT prescribe what a "dollar" is, nor does it prescribe that "gold and silver" will be the ONLY money.

United States Treasury notes (or just monetized coins), as opposed to FRNs, issued without inherent debt & usury, would be a good start towards stabilizing America's wealth. Kennedy tried issuing USTs, and look what happened.



I understand your argument that you can obtain silver at spot +, and again, you and everyone else on this board possesses that right, at least for now.


Again, huh?

Are you saying that the Feds will take away the right to buy and/or own silver, but not your dear "Liberty Dollars"?



Can anyone quote me the date that the Federal Reserve was last independently audited?


Irrelevant. The illegitimacy of the Federal Reserve is not at issue here. The illegitimacy of the "Liberty Dollar" is.



The Liberty Dollar is NOT an MLM, a structure for which I have tremendous disdain.


Lies. I won't mince words. This is just plain lies.



It consists of two levels, RCO and Associate, both of whom can potentially profit as they distribute Libertys and educate the vast majority of individuals who have never comprehended money, simply because the folks who produce FRNs do not want people to understand the machinations of monetary production.


A stinking rose by any other name would smell as stinky.

HOW do you "profit" by distributing "honest money"? That's what the Fed claims it's doing. Someone has to lose.



So, go ahead and buy PMs at spot +, and go ahead and spout "the law" as it has been perverted and our money debased from gold and silver to its present form of cotton and electrons, but please do not bad-mouth the Liberty Dollar until you have done more diligence in your research.


All the research needed has been done. Von KnotHead hangs himself right on his website:

http://www.libertydollar.org/

And researching the "'Royal' Hawaiian Mint" illustrates Von KnotHead's modus operandi of FRAUD.



I find the vehement opposition to this free-market business a bit perplexing, in that the folks on this board tend to have a far better uderstanding of monetary metals than most.


We call a spade a spade 'round here.

Honest money is NOT a "business." It's a basic service of government. Since government has abandoned its duty on that matter, the People should use silver & gold, in whatever honest form, for trading, not a proprietary instrument costing 30% more than is necessary....profit that does NOT serve anyone but "Liberty Services," Von KnotHead's front.



Maybe you had a bad experience with the Liberty Dollar? A Personal grudge with someone involved perhaps?


I have no direct experience with the "Liberty Dollar," any more than I have direct experience with Scamway or any other MLM scheme.

As for personal motives, what exactly are YOUR motives? Certainly not selfless, since you've admitted a "profit" motive in all this.



Nevertheless, I welcome further topical discussion, and hope that I can allay any mis-conceptions regarding the Liberty Dollar.

As indicated before, one just need go to...

http://www.libertydollar.org/

...to learn why buying the "Liberty Dollar" is only for FOOLS.

[Tragedy Trousers]

They would be honest if they didn't have a face value, and stated the weight and fineness.



:mad_m:

Their weight is stated. I would like to see FRNs stated with their cotton fineness and quality of their fine inks. :stupido2:

[Kahlil Gibran]

Liberty Dollars have been exposed as being a fraud many times at GIM:

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=38663&highlight=Liberty+Dollar

[Anty Ep]

He says his name is "Bernard Von NotHaus." What kind of name is that? For a chap who's aggressively marketing a privately minted moneylike product that is "moral and legal" I think we might fairly apply some scrutiny to his persona.

I predict this lawsuit will fail. Then, on its heels, if they really want to drive his dick in the dirt, there will come a denial of any exempt status he is claiming as "educational," and a corresponding income tax fraud prosecution.

Folks consider picking up a "liberty dollar" round just for the novelty of it, because its days are numbered. Keep in mind though, if your name makes it on his mailing list, you may be called as a witness. LOL :aetsch:


http://www.libertydollar.org/graphics/home/five_front_20base.jpg
$5 Silver Certificate
Redeemable by Bearer on Demand
Distributed by a national, nonprofit,
educational organization

[mjk1971]

I am a Liberty Associate and Merchant. I have a storefront, and I hand out Libertys as change, as well as accept them in payment for my products and services.

Answer his question.

Or shall I?


http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/get-started/liberty-associate.htm


What is a Liberty Associate?

A Liberty Associate is an individual, business or organization that has signed a contract with the Liberty Dollar and gets the Liberty Dollar at a discount. As an Associate there are no dues, no meetings, no obligations, and no time requirements. Associates are not required to physically redeem the paper currency for gold and silver, since that is handled by National Fulfillment Office. Nor are Associates required to exchange the Liberty Dollar back to US Dollars. It only takes $250 to become an Associate. As a new Associate you immediately get $100 Liberty Dollars back, your referrer gets $100 for sponsoring you, and Liberty Dollar retains $50 balance for administration. (to clarify, that's $50 for "administration," and $100 to your MLM sponsor, but not mentioned is the lost value between "Liberty Dollars" face value and actual silver value --mjk) So you spent $250, you got back $100 Liberty Dollars back and are out $150. But as the Liberty Dollar is as opposed to Associates being in debt as much as our country being in debt, we ask you to sponsor two new Associates. And since you get $100 for every Associate you refer, just sign up two friends, and you actually made $50 while doing what is good for your friends and the country! (this is CLASSIC MLM --mjk) Refer more Associates - make more money. You can refer anyone, anywhere, anytime over the Internet. There are no geographic limitations or boundaries. There are many international Associates already. PLEASE NOTE: The Liberty Dollar is NOT a multilevel marketing product (MLM). The Associate program is a simple, single-tier sponsorship program, just like Amazon.com or PayPal use.) (unadulterated LIES, which only a very naive or stupid person would fall for. Von KnotHead is disingenuous here, implying that because there are only three tiers, him, "Liberty Dollar" pimps aka "Associates," and suckers, it's not "really" MLM --mjk)