Objective Truth?

[Scorpio]

Looking at it realistically, Ron Paul that is,

1) It is one of our best chances to get someone even close to our core belief system into this level of govt.

2) Who is a suitable running mate is a great question

3) There are no Republicans that can beat the Dems if he isn't in the game. They will kill the Repubs no matter who is up, on blowback from the Bush presidency years.

4) R Paul will slay the Dems if in it.

5) The country just may be ready to take a long shot. It has happened before, like with Carter, but that was a switch of party.

6) Best prepare to man the battle stations and take him independent so he can make the race.

7) They will do everything possible, and I do mean everything, to keep him out. Think P Wellstone and plane crashes by 'pilot error', who was a politician from Minnesota. He was a thorn in their side big time. They finally silenced him. BTW, Wellstone was a Jew, and they took him out. Go figure. Kinda throws that theory out of whack.

8) There are a great number of people who have not voted in the past history of elections, and they need to be encouraged to do so for one cut from a different cloth. If they do not, it will fail as the party liners go for the crown holder.

10) R Paul is imminently likeable, which is very contrary to the last time this was attempted, with Perot and his charts.

11) There will be pressure from many areas abroad to support the other campaigns, as many have a dog in this fight.

Lastly,

12) They may well let him do his thing, maybe even win, and then the big upheaval will begin, and the whole of the built up excesses will be dumped at his feet, and they walk away with the 'I told you so's'.

and

13) He is but one man, and without an army he is nothing. Meaning, that without supporters in the House and Senate, his ideas will never see the light of day. The message must be so strong and pervasive, that others join in and help carry the flag.

Add as you see fit.

[Kahlil Gibran]

I don't think Americans are worthy of Ron Paul.

:Sorry: If it is up to them we are doomed.

[G-khan]

Thats about the most sense you ever made and this is about the only time I will agree and join with you! That being said - I think they will kick him out of the debates and force him to go as an independent..

That means it will take an army of people willing to work for him - hope you are all ready to work.. being an independent is a hard road to go on. He needs to get on the ballots of all the states. I think you have to collect so many names from your state?

[Scorpio]

A really good point KG,

are they so conditioned, so completely sodomized, that they would not even understand what it is he speaks to?

[Horn]

12) They may well let him do his thing, maybe even win, and then the big upheaval will begin, and the whole of the built up excesses will be dumped at his feet, and they walk away with the 'I told you so's'.

We have nothing to fear, but the truth.

And holy shit is that going to be scary...

Good post Scorp.

[fvk]

Thats about the most sense you ever made and this is about the only time I will agree and join with you! That being said - I think they will kick him out of the debates and force him to go as an independent..

That means it will take an army of people willing to work for him - hope you are all ready to work.. being an independent is a hard road to go on. He needs to get on the ballots of all the states. I think you have to collect so many names from your state?

"Can't fight against the youth"
- sublime

Whats different this time is the impact that Dr. Paul is having on the kids over at slashdot, myspace, digg, and youtube. They will take it personal, as kids do. Maybe not this time, probably not this time, but you got a whole generation of worked up rich kids gonna question the system for real after this. He's already won.

[Scorpio]

this is about the only time I will agree and join with you!

My friend Gringo Khan,

I can accept baby steps. Kicking and screaming sure, but come you will.

[gunner]

Interesting how Rudy bragged about the money he had retruned to Saudi Arabia because they wanted him to recognize how our foreign policy was hurting them. Seems Ron Paul would be a good candidate for them to back, since he's already taking a non-interventionist position. Rudy will have to be careful critisizing him over any foreign contributors, his Citgo, Saudi ties could come into the light as well.

[mamboni]

There is a factor this time that is far more pervasive than ever before, one that can greatly level the playing field of national politics: the internet. Each GIMer has the ability to directly influence dozens of friends and relatives, and through them, many more. My sense is that people are more receptive to alternate candidates than years past. Why? \I sense an unease, a quiet desperation in people who are not as confident in America's future or their's given the barrage of troubling news and general instability in the world. And George Bush has damaged the presidency, very badly. I think a candidate who projects honesty, integrity, genuineness and personal stature is going to enjoy great sway with the people.

[Horn]

I would love to see an Independent win America.

This, I would march for if I could find a babysitter.

[FoundingFathers]

Yes, good thread Scorp!


I've also thought about #12 and worried about.

It's a risk we'll have to take!


PS - Love the new avatar!

[G-khan]

My friend Gringo Khan,

I can accept baby steps. Kicking and screaming sure, but come you will.

Lets get one thing straight scorpdude I agree with you on Ron Paul and that is it..

[gunner]

A really good point KG,

are they so conditioned, so completely sodomized, that they would not even understand what it is he speaks to?


I don't know about that, he has a way about him. He speaks in a calm, rational tone and explains things simply. He's miles apart from all the empty suits that were on stage with him during the past 2 debates.

As far as worry #12 - I'd rather have a man like him in charge than Hillary or Rudy during that tough period in time.

[Scorpio]

gunner, SA may indeed be ready for regime and political change, which could be quite helpful.

exactly right mamboni, I sense the same thing,

'Most men lead lives of quiet desperation, and go to their graves with the song still in them'

Horn, now that was funny, you are indeed on a roll. I will get ya the babysitter.

:beer:

Agreed FF, a very big risk, but do we swallow the pill on our terms, or their way I would guess to be the ultimate question.

[Kahlil Gibran]

"Can't fight against the youth"
- sublime

Whats different this time is the impact that Dr. Paul is having on the kids over at slashdot, myspace, digg, and youtube. They will take it personal, as kids do. Maybe not this time, probably not this time, but you got a whole generation of worked up rich kids gonna question the system for real after this. He's already won.

College Kids stopped the Vietnam War. That's what I don't get now. Where are the Kids? They know America and their Future are bankrupt. Geezers soon depending on Social Security and free Medicare meds just don't have the gumption to make it happen. Viagra is not enough. Only the young can effect a real Revolution.

:ridinghor <--- young man's game

[AgAuGal]

I like the points you have made but I am concerned that in general people need to suffer a great deal before they will move from apathy (the ones that sit on a couch and complaind but don't expend any calories to make a difference or effect change) or they seem to be ready for anarchy without trying reasonable steps in between.

I did sign the Alex Jones petition to send a message to the RNC - better that sitting on my dairy-aire and just giving up or whinning. If he has to go independent this time I plan to help get his name on the ballot - that requires going door to door, finally a reason to talk to my neighbors:wavey:

If the RNC thwarts his ability to participate in the debates it's time for long term card carrying Republicans to burn their membership cards. Now that I can't tell the difference between the parties I just look for ehe person that offers more than sound bites, seems to be of good character and has some experience in politics but not entirely corrupted by them. I love the times he was they only Congressman to put the screws to Greenspan - he may not have got a straight answer but it usually was obvious Greenspan wished Ron Paul was not on the committee he had to report to:boxing: I love CSPAN.

Scorpio, I would like to know your opinion or anyone else about Tommy Thompson - I'm not that famiuliar with him but I thought he was not thought of fondly then I hear Wisconsin voted him into office 4 times - anyone know if that is true??

[Scorpio]

fvk and KG,

I think the youth are ready, they just need something worth standing up for!

nice to see ya again fvk, very nice indeed.

[AgAuGal]

Lets get one thing straight scorpdude I agree with you on Ron Paul and that is it..

how about restaurants, can you guys agree on restaurants???

[fvk]

Only the young can effect a real Revolution.

:ridinghor <--- young man's game

I agree. But thats the wildcard. The old farts running things, as much as they
would like to believe otherwise, don't have the first clue how the kids are going
to react to something. And they believe the kids don't matter. Which is always
their downfall. Kids are willing to die for what they believe in. God love 'em.

"Why don't you ask the kids at Tiananmen Square
was fashion the reason why they were there?"
- System of a Down

[G-khan]

how about restaurants, can you guys agree on restaurants???

No he wants salmon and honey only.................

[gunner]

Tommy Thompson

http://www.thepowerhour.com/news2/verichip_tommythompson.htm

Since he became a director of Applied Digital Solutions, a company that manufactures the VeriChip, Tommy Thompson, Bush's former HHS secretary, wants to tag all US citizens like cattle.

[AgAuGal]

Does Ron Paul have a MySpace page? I'm thinking if he wants to reach the kids but some of them may not have had enough life experience to understand the value he offers.

The other downside to him becoming president is the Congress. He may be a good president but he will have to work with most of those congressional scumbags (anyone see they shoved an imimgrant amnesty through w/o debate.

Deal may legalize millions of immigrants By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS, Associated Press Writer
59 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - In a striking reach across party lines, the White House and key lawmakers agreed Thursday on a sweeping immigration plan to grant legal status to millions of people in the country unlawfully.

Sealed after months of secretive bargaining, the deal mandates bolstered border security and a high-tech employment verification system to prevent illegal workers from getting jobs.

President Bush said the proposal would "help enforce our borders but equally importantly, it'll treat people with respect."

The compromise brought together an unlikely alliance of liberal Democrats such as Sen. Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts and conservative Republicans such as Sen. Jon Kyl (news, bio, voting record) of Arizona on an issue that carries heavy potential risks and rewards for all involved.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (news, bio, voting record), D-Nev., said debate would begin on Monday, but he cautioned, "I don't know if the immigration legislation is going to bear fruit and we're going to be able to pass it."

Almost instantly, the plan brought vehement criticism from both sides of the immigration issue, including liberals who called it unfair and unworkable and conservatives who branded it an overly permissive "amnesty."

The proposal constitutes a far-reaching change in the immigration system that would admit future arrivals seeking to put down roots in the U.S. based on their skills, education levels and job experience, limiting the importance of family ties. A new class of guest workers would be allowed in temporarily, but only after the new security measures were in place — expected to take 18 months.

"This is a bill where people who live here in our country will be treated without amnesty but without animosity," Bush said.

Kennedy hailed it as "the best possible chance we will have in years to secure our borders and bring millions of people out of the shadows and into the sunshine of America."

Kyl said the measure wasn't perfect, "but it represents the best opportunity that we have in a bipartisan way to do something about this problem."

It was clear, however, that many Republicans and Democrats were deeply skeptical. Reid said it needed improvement.

"I have serious concerns about some aspects of this proposal, including the structure of the temporary worker program and undue limitations on family immigration," Reid said.

Conservatives on both sides of the Capitol derided the deal as "amnesty" for illegal immigrants, using a politically charged word that figured prominently in campaigns across the country last year.

"I don't care how you try to spin it, this is amnesty," said Sen. Jim DeMint (news, bio, voting record), R-S.C.

The proposed agreement would allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a "Z visa" and — after paying fees and a $5,000 fine — ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years. Heads of households would have to return to their home countries first.

They could come forward right away to claim a probationary card that would let them live and work legally in the U.S., but could not begin the path to permanent residency or citizenship until border security improvements and the high-tech worker identification program were completed.

A new crop of low-skilled guest workers would have to return home after stints of two years. They could renew their visas twice, but would be required to leave for a year in between each time. If they wanted to stay in the U.S. permanently, they would have to apply under the point system for a limited pool of green cards.

The program drew fire from liberal groups that said it was unworkable. They had joined Democrats in pressing instead for guest workers to be permitted to stay and work indefinitely in the U.S., and ultimately earn the chance to stay.

"Without a clear path to permanent residence for a healthy share of the future temporary workers, we run the risk of reproducing the widespread illegality that this bill is designed to address," said Frank Sharry, the executive director of the National Immigration Forum.

Sen. Byron Dorgan (news, bio, voting record), D-N.D., said he would try to kill the temporary worker program because it would bring in a potentially unlimited stream of immigrants to compete with Americans for jobs and depress wages.

In perhaps the most hotly debated change, the proposed plan would shift from an immigration system primarily weighted toward family ties toward one with preferences for people with advanced degrees and sophisticated skills. Republicans have long sought such revisions, which they say are needed to end "chain migration" that harms the economy.

Family connections alone would no longer be enough to qualify for a green card — except for spouses and minor children of U.S. citizens. Strict new limits would apply to U.S. citizens seeking to bring foreign-born parents into the country.

The issue quickly became a subject of debate among presidential candidates in both parties, exposing divisions among Republicans.

Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), R-Ariz., who led the charge last year to push through an immigration overhaul, called the deal "the first step" and urged moving it forward before the politics of 2008 made such action impossible.

"We all know that this issue can be caught up in extracurricular politics unless we move forward as quickly as possible," said McCain.

Mitt Romney, another Republican presidential hopeful, issued a statement calling the plan "the wrong approach," saying it conferred "a form of amnesty" on illegal immigrants. "That is unfair to the millions of people who have applied to legally immigrate to the U.S.," the former Massachusetts governor said.

Former Republican Sen. Fred Thompson of Tennessee, who is weighing a presidential bid, said the measure should be scrapped in favor of one that secures the border.

"With this bill, the American people are going to think they are being sold the same bill of goods as before on border security," Thompson said in a statement.

Democratic Sen. Barack Obama (news, bio, voting record) of Illinois said the compromise needs work.

"Without modifications, the proposed bill could devalue the importance of family reunification, replace the current group of undocumented immigrants with a new undocumented population consisting of guest workers who will overstay their visas, and potentially drive down wages of American workers," Obama said in a statement.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/immigration_congress

[Scorpio]

AgGal,

TT was just fine as a governor, took care of the budgets, etc et al.

He was respected and not loved. He was not the type to cater to the social special interests. For one, he was the creator of the elimination of the standard fare welfare programs. Give B Clinton credit for signing off on letting TT be the pilot program. Lo and behold it worked, as welfare spending decreased dramatically without the 'big' social repercussions forecast.

The clown we have now is a real piece of work. We had a good opponent, who called him out in this last election about his lies and deceit re budgets, etc from his first term. The guy flat out nailed him. Said it was all smoke and mirrors. He lost, and shortly after the election, all of the things the opponent was saying rang very true.

For instance, Doyle said the budget was balanced, while the opponent was saying no, you are 1.4B upside down. Anyway, the idiot democratic base in Wi voted the guy back in, and a month after the election, he was out promoting tax hikes to pay for the 1.6B budget deficit that supposedly didn't exist.

[gunner]

http://www.wonkette.com/politics/tommy-thompson/tommy-thompson-fever-catch-it-221999.php

tommy thompson (http://www.wonkette.com/politics/tommy-thompson/)

Tommy Thompson Fever: Catch It! (http://wonkette.com/politics/tommy-thompson/tommy-thompson-fever-catch-it-221999.php)

<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Former guy-we-barely-remember Tommy “Tommy Gun” Thompson is running for president!
He filed his papers today, as you can see by this grainy faxed image. A Wonkette operative says, “For the ‘who cares’ file. Still time to get that ‘ThompsonForPresident’ domain name!”
Thompson was governor of Wisconsin (http://www.wonkette.com/politics/wisconsin/), where he grew mutant transgendered deer, (http://www.wonkette.com/politics/tony-blair/christmas-apocalypse-now-221886.php) and then Bush made him the Health and Human Services secretary, where he told a $150 billion lie about the new Medicare scheme (http://www.ourfuture.org/issues_and_campaigns/medicare/headlines/ssip_20040402.cfm) and engaged in regular conflicts of interest that profited his various companies and investments. In 2004, he quit to concentrate on putting radio-computer chips in people’s skin (http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=104&contentid=2579) so the government can control them or even kill them at will.

[_79]

I don't think Americans are worthy of Ron Paul.

:Sorry: If it is up to them we are doomed.

I tend to agree.

[AMforPM]

People are so desperately tired of sneering, jeering liars that the quiet truthfulness of Paul is like water in the desert. He is blowing the others away in polls.

But all the buts apply as well - the unfortunate plane crash, the mike trick run on Dean, and dumping the crash at his doorstep.

I want to see Paul vs Gravel and their speeches sweeping like minded people into Congress. (ie not liars on both tickets)

Clean up is a b1tch though. Carter got no kudos for telling people not to waste energy. Telling people we have to rebuild the economy from the rubble will not be an easy task. Maybe we have had our noses rubbed in the liars enough now to be grown ups when the president is.

He is so honest, I wonder if he is taking security seriously? I know there are ways to stay alive on the hit list because Fidel did, and I am sure there are conservative Americans with the skills and willingness to protect him properly. I just hope he hires the right ones soon enough. Wellstone, JFK Sr and Jr, Wallace... the list is long.

Plus they have vote fraud like they took out Buchanan with.

Nevertheless, I'm excited by the response the public has had to Paul and Gravel in the early debates.

[Horn]

Geez, now I have to worry about mossad starting WWIII if Paul get's elected, this is just great.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

[firewalker]

Anyone read The Fourth Turning? We are following it as if scripted.

We will solve the mess that has been left for us. We will also be unthanked and most of us will die poor. But we will also help society transform into something unimaginable today. This particular iteration of the cycle is going to be much more powerful than the last (1929-1945) and will be global.

We may even be the first ones to reap the rewards of the society we create: technology is about to make death a long way out (or possibly obsolete).

If you haven't read it:
http://www.fourthturning.com/

[DC7]

Firewalker,
Anyone read The Fourth Turning? We are following it as if scripted.

We will solve the mess that has been left for us. We will also be unthanked and most of us will die poor. But we will also help society transform into something unimaginable today. This particular iteration of the cycle is going to be much more powerful than the last (1929-1945) and will be global.

If you've recomended the book on GIM before, I've gotta thank you for turning me onto it. It's a good read. I haven't read the whole thing, but I read quite a bit. For now I'm withholding judgement as to whether the theory is totally accurate, but it definately is worth paying attention to and thinking about.

Considering it makes me think of one of the points Scorpio opened this thread with:

12) They may well let him do his thing, maybe even win, and then the big upheaval will begin, and the whole of the built up excesses will be dumped at his feet, and they walk away with the 'I told you so's'.

If Paul is in office, and everything turns to crap, is the next turning going to be a collectivist reaction to the failure of individualism? If a Democrat wins, and the country enter a great crisis, can they rally the country behind collectivist, turn in your guns, individualism is bad style unity and make that the heritage we pass on to our children and decendents? Would the winner of the next election shape the course of our future by being an example to follow, or will people regard it as what not to do?

I guess it depends if Paul could really pull off fixing the country as president. We definately need a change.

I'm no Republican and couldn't say I prefer them too much over Democrats. But in the past century they were traditionally the anti-war, anti spending, anti big government party. Now Paul is critisized for being anti-war?

In the last 100 years, WWI, II, and the Cold War started by Democrats, and opposed by Republicans. Korea, and Viet Nam started by Democrats. WWI and II end under Democrats. Korea, Vietnam, and Cold War ended under Republicans. Then the Republicans switch up and take the US into two Gulf Wars and Afganistan at about the right timing for a turning.

[volzka]

Hey-

Wanna know a bit about tt do ya' huh, Gal. Ok.

I once had a chat with the head of the Wi. demo party. He told me that they spent almost nothing in the campaign when that guy ran. They figured a freshman had absolutely no chance of winning. They simply didn't know how much of the big money he had promised favors to. Scouts' honor.

When you kids get boozed up and kicked off the football team, it's nice to have pop change the law.

On a more personal level, I can remember my fourth grade experience of getting nosey about what was up on the fourth where all the "big kids" were. It was kinda scary so I turned around and started back down. The next thing I remember was lying face down in the corner of the landing, hurting like hell, and that guy, with his buddy Ron ______ walking down the stairs, laughing.

IMHO, he still likes pushing little folks down stairs-thinks it's funny. I may be partly responsible for giving negative re-enforcement for not squealing to his mom, the teacher.

Want more? I've got more. Maybe now is the time to be very afraid.

Volzka