Newsflash: Millions line up to return gas grills today

[bigjon]

Ageed, low temp black smoke fires don't melt steel. How about the higher temp infernal that was warping/swelling/expanding close tolarence metals ?



I'm sure you're not melting plastics, vinyl and carpeting while you're cutting steel either.

Doesn't matter what you're burning, halo, the main ingredient for any fire is oxygen. A lack of it causes sooty low temp black fire that we saw. all of the things you mention have fire points less than 500 degrees Fahrenheit.

Your plane has to knock off the concrete or burn through it and it would only happen on the side of the impact so you would expect the towers to keel over on that side, not go straight down

Then there is the matter of the people who were video'd walking around on the floors of impact, really hot fire, ha ha.

[Large Sarge]

then why is there shattered steel shards all over, blown far and wide,

please just watch the video.....

Really, the whole thing is 40 minutes, the first 15 deal with all the lies about the pentagon attack...

so just "fast forward" to about the halfway point...

if you want to pick apart those arguments, I am willing to listen, keep in mind he has photographs, and video footage.... to support his statements.....

[Halophyte]

then why is there shattered steel shards all over, blown far and wide,.....

Impact of collapse. Impact shatters steel. Watch a building demo and inspect the structural steel supports (not associated with the demo charges) after the demo.

please just watch the video ...

Really, the whole thing is 40 minutes, the first 15 deal with all the lies about the pentagon attack...

so just "fast forward" to about the halfway point...

if you want to pick apart those arguments, I am willing to listen, keep in mind he has photographs, and video footage.... to support his statements.....

Will do.

But I'm not out to debunk any conspiracy theory, I really don't have the time or inclination. I might comment on specific data if any structural data is given beyond inconclusive incidental photography and hearsay.

.

[WAoG]

So, there was a conspiracy here, only an Arab one and what did they gain?:withstupi So, there was a conspiracy here, only an zionist one and what did they gain? Everything they wanted.

[bigjon]

There is no sense trying to argue any point other than there was a conspiracy here with those that are looking for one. They believe there were demolition teams and drone airplanes and the original aircraft and passengers were carted away someplace and killed or maybe still held captive. My guess is there would need to be hundreds if not thousands involved in their theory.. Its all bunk - now watch all the upset conspiracy guys get mad hehehehe

A bunch of pissed off arabs did it and they tried one time before with no collapse. If that had been successful they would have said that was also a conspiracy - 1994 I believe. You can not have an explosion - for that matter even the weather and volcanos erupting all evil plans. If a meteor hit and destroyed a city today they would claim it was not a meteor.. blah blah blah

Your ignorance is showing again. In the 94 incident the agent provocateur got cold feet and taped his meetings with the FBI. All a matter of court record, the FBI promised they would stop the bombing and insisted that the patsies go ahead. The patsies were convicted, but the FBI got a black eye, just like they did again for 911 where they protected the patsy Arabs, until they could be called on as terrorists.

Who benefited? Not the Arabs.

[Large Sarge]

of course all the "puts" made on American Airlines, and united are just mere coincidence, because "Foreknowledge" by Govt insiders wishing to profit at the expense of 3000+ U.S. citizens is just "coincidence" also.....

you can look at anyone piece and TRY to pick it apart....

but taken as a whole, it STINKS to high heaven.....

How about old Larry Silverstein taking out that insurance policy 6 weeks before the attack....?

turned a 200 million dollar investment into 3 or 4 Billion in 6 weeks...

That has to be a record....

[Halophyte]

Doesn't matter what you're burning, halo, the main ingredient for any fire is oxygen. A lack of it causes sooty low temp black fire that we saw. all of the things you mention have fire points less than 500 degrees Fahrenheit.

Your plane has to knock off the concrete or burn through it and it would only happen on the side of the impact so you would expect the towers to keel over on that side, not go straight down

Then there is the matter of the people who were video'd walking around on the floors of impact, really hot fire, ha ha.

A well drafted fire burning long enough, with the assistance of an overwhelming impact did the trick.

You left out one important factor. Time.

Time for the burn after the impact.

I just participated in the replacing primary circuit heat exchangers at my local nuke plant. The upper lateral supports were given 3/32 nds of an inch clearance for heat expansion. We inserted stainless shims for the clearance specs. After a run up to only 525 degrees there is no clearance for expansion left.

If we did not allow for heat rise expansion of the metal - 370 tons of steel would break its 10 ton support brackets. It could result in a horrific nuclear incident.

Only 525 degrees.

These buildings are not heat exchangers but they do allow heat rise for limited building fire with the consideration of a workable sprinkler system. Not one with sprinkler standpipes shattered by impact of a commercial jet aircraft.

I find it illogical that the docu-drama experts refuse to examine the lower temp fastener support expansion limits while concentrating on the heat required to melt I-beams. Slag can be formed by either high temps or by high energy crushing impact. Want to see slag - drop a 5 ton I-beam 50 floors and inspect the I-beam.

I can only conclude this is a purposeful distraction to bolster their argument.



.

[Halophyte]

A pilot is more than a driver. Part engineer too. Can't fly without understanding the physics of heavier than air flight or the aircrafts structural limits. I welcome your input too.

I don't claim to understand all the variables in a building implosion - neither do the demo pros. They can only hope that building design will assist in a clean demo. But things go wrong. Sometimes they luck out and all goes as planned.

I expect the variables to a building collapse are as infinite as the parts required to build the structure.




BTW skyvike - if an aircraft has a structural failure it is usually the fasteners that give out first, not the fuselage or wing frames.

[Ponce Cuba]

Ok then, how about building 7????? was it hit by an hi by an "invisible" plane?

Man oh man, those Arabs and Muslims are light years ahead of us if they do have invisible planes.

[GREENSILVERHORN]

I know the answer but am withholding evidence for further review.

The political events after the collapse are the most telling tale.

After the many years that followed and then watching a video of all three going down in the same way, add to that the pentagon mystery and its all to conclusive to me.

I find it hard to post on the subject anymore due the dis-heartening effects it has on me for the future.

Someone on G.I.M. after the London bombings posted a link I will try and find on the terrorist issue. It pointed to Egypt being targeted for not playin ball, sure enough within a week Egypt was hit. This was all I needed.

Everything fell into place.

Israel or those associated with her have been to close to all of these attacks and they also stand the most to gain from them. Its all to obvious anymore.

We can find Sadam hiding under a rock in Iraq, but Bin Laden with an entire enterage of cameras and followers remains elusive.

These guys aren't to hard to figure out. They are glamorizing terrorists and creating many more minds who in the future may really want to kick the whole sh*t can down the hill.

[Prometheus]

I do believe there were many conspiracies involved on 9-11...

Did demo charges bring down the towers? I can't say 100% either way and I honestly don't think anyone on this board can say it 100% either way. To me thats the 'small stuff'... The bigger questions are who and why and we are seeing that with PAT acts and wars ect. ect. lots of $$$ is being made. Follow the money.

Speaking of black smoke / soot ect. ect...
On a side note, I ws a firefighter before changing careers and I saw many car fires...

The internal crap in a car (seats ect. ect.) can get a car hot enough that the steel will twist distort ect. ect. I've seen just about every type of car from 1970's to late 90's get torched (I was a newbie and worked the ghettos)... Be it via arson or 'natural causes' I believe it is possible for what happened to the the main towers to have been caused by the fire. It's even likely IMO. Was it helped along? Thats a possibility too.

I honestly don't care there is no way to prove it 100% unless the the team planting the explosives come clean (if there ever was one).

What I'm more concerned about and what should be alot easier to prove is the object that hit the pentagon...

The video footage is out there, .gov refuses to release it... why?

[Ponce Cuba]

I do have a CD that shows the Pentagon "before" the wall came down and it shows a hole about four by eight with unbroken glass windows around it.

And it does not show any parts of a plane, unless "once again" it was an invisible plane.

You can see desks with papers on them and standing file cabinets and even a guy on the upper floor to the left looking down.

According to the stories that I have seen it is said that only one movie of the first plane hitting the Twin Towers was out there .......well, I did see another that was taken by a Japanese tourist while filming his wife, I saw that film only one time and then it was goneeeeeeee into the twilight zone.

[Didga]

Original Link:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Dr. Keith Eaton after touring Ground Zero stated in The Structural Engineer, ‘They showed us many fascinating slides’ [Eaton] continued, ‘ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster’. (Structural Engineer, September 3, 2002, p. 6; emphasis added.)

Sarah Atlas was part of New Jersey's Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue and was one of the first on the scene at Ground Zero with her canine partner Anna. She reported in Penn Arts and Sciences, summer 2002, ‘Nobody's going to be alive.' Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet. (Penn, 2002; emphasis added.)

The observation of molten metal at Ground Zero was emphasized publicly by Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for the design of the World Trade Center Towers, who reported that “As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running.” (Williams, 2001, p. 3; emphasis added.)

A video clip provides eye-witness evidence regarding this metal at ground zero: http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/red_hot_ground_zero_low_quality.wmv .

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/hotSlag.jpg

The photograph above shows solid metal slag at salmon-to-yellow-hot temperature (approx. 1550 - 1900 oF, 845 - 1040 oC) being extracted from ground zero. The temperature is well above the melting temperatures of lead and aluminum, and these metals can evidently be ruled out since they would be runny liquids at much lower (cherry-red or below) temperatures. However, the observed hot specimen could be structural steel (from the building) or iron (from a thermite reaction) or a combination of the two.

Original Link:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc_hotspots.html

The following image is published by the US Geological Survey. Results of Airborne Visible/Infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS) remote sensing data and interpretations show the distribution and intensity of thermal hot spots in the area in and around the World Trade Center on September 16 and 23, 2001.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/hotspot.key.tgif.gif

Hot spot A is located in the debris pile of WTC 7. A thermite detonation in the basement of this building would have burned at temperatures greater than 2500ºC. The temperature of the hot spot is 727ºC
Hot spot G is located in the debris pile of WTC 2. This building contained only office fires when it collapsed (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc_fire.htm). The temperature of the hot spot is 747ºC.Kerosene used in lamps and jet fuel does not burn at a high enough temperature to melt steel. Molten steel found deep underground could not be produced by the fires above moving underground after the collapse. Steel and iron have similair melting points. Create a fire out of a kerosene soaked office desk you have chopped up in a pot belly stove, does you stove turn red hot and start to melt? Have all the air intakes open and even blow some air in there with a fan, is the stove going to melt? Next try burying the stove for five days under rubble while pouring water on it. Is it red hot when you take it out? Did it turn into a liquid and solidify? Try placing a steel can, or a tin can, or even some aluminium foil in a camp fire and getting it to turn into liquid or glow red hot.

Thermite reaction explosives produce molten iron as they burn with an extremely intense exothermic reaction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exothermic_reaction). Thermite contains its own supply of oxygen, and does not require any external source such as air. Consequently, it cannot be smothered and may ignite in any environment, given sufficient initial heat. It will burn just as well while underwater, for example, and cannot even be extinguished with water, as water sprayed on a thermite reaction will instantly be boiled into steam. This, combined with the extremely high temperatures generated, makes thermite reactions extremely hazardous even when appropriate precautions are taken.

A photograph has become available, evidently showing the solidified slag from this molten material with entrained rubble. This lump of once liquid metal is stored (as of November 2005) in a warehouse in New York, the photograph can be viewed here:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Please let me know if you require more evidence to prove that explosives were used in the basements of the twin towers to bring them down or if you are interested in discussing this.

Most of this post can be referenced to Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse? By Steven E. Jones, Department of Physics and Astronomy, Brigham Young University.

[Halophyte]

Kerosene used in lamps and jet fuel does not burn at a high enough temperature to melt steel. Molten steel found deep underground could not be produced by the fires above moving underground after the collapse. Steel and iron have similair melting points. Create a fire out of a kerosene soaked office desk you have chopped up in a pot belly stove, does you stove turn red hot and start to melt? Have all the air intakes open and even blow some air in there with a fan, is the stove going to melt? Next try burying the stove for five days under rubble while pouring water on it. Is it red hot when you take it out? Did it turn into a liquid and solidify? Try placing a steel can, or a tin can, or even some aluminium foil in a camp fire and getting it to turn into liquid or glow red hot.

Energy brings metal up to those temperatures. The question not asked by the docu-drama "experts" is - what was the total energy of compression released and exerted on the base superstructure at the time of implosion/collapse ?

A thermite cut of the frame would have been too obvious to the public’s eye PRIOR to the building collapse. Same with the so called explosive charges - instead of the blow-out compression burst of collapsing floors/framework seen as the building imploded. Compression loads can and do easily transverse the box-girder frame several floors below the impact zone.

Those so called thermal explosive events would have occured at the base of the building, and would have been photographed and recorded well before the building collapse but no one wants to admit it. Thermite burns so hot it would have been like bolts of flashing lighting going off at ground level or where ever the so call charges were placed. There should have been a brilliant blinding light seen (from the street outside) at any close proximity window or doorway.

It boggles the mind to understand the amount of energy required to build these skyscrapers over the years of construction - the same amount of energy is released in just a few seconds as it falls - kinetic energy released in a collapse of a building that size. So much so, it can easilt melt steel - few can wrap their minds around it fact. The purveyors of docu-dramas counts on the general ignorance of the public.


.

[GoldWampum]

The clip of bldg 7 seems to indicate that the building gave way at the bottom and the top, for the most part was intact while it dropped. Am I seeing this wrong?

In any event, I am glad I still use a charcoal BBQ. I'd hate to have to return it.:character

[Large Sarge]

The head professor of Physics at BYU does not support the "Official story"

and While I realize you are very smart Halo (I have read a lot of your posts on alternative energy, etc)

The professor is known as a conservative family man, not known for wild speculation, his paper is very well documented....

all the evidence points to explosives

The thing that really "clinches it" is the fact that the buildings fell in their own footprints, someone else said earlier, they would have skewed sideways if fire was the cause, because fire was only present on one side of the building....

we can expect a collapse of the heated side first, with possible collapse of the other side later

and as stated earlier, we have all those folks who knew about the attack and profited immensely from it....

[Large Sarge]

along with all the "Ear winesses" who heard explosions...

we had firemen who had reached the top floor, and reported the fir ewas contained, and would be "easy to put out"

We also have this mystery Janitor who was in the basement

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=22869&highlight=janitor

[keehah]

"Right now, government shills are working hard to trick web sites... This is an old intelligence trick called "Poisoning the well",
the intentional promotion of lies to blend with an embarrassing truth to discredit it... So, we get hoax stories poured onto
the net by government propagandists, to be used by the media to attack the credibility of anyone who dares doubt the
official story."


Why all the focus on the weakest links of The 911 Conpsiracy guys?

These were the images I was looking at when I realized I had been 'had' believing the Pentagon missle theory.




http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/pentagon_precollapse.jpg


http://www.thepowerhour.com/images/compall.jpg

[honu5050]

Original Link:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Dr. Keith Eaton after touring Ground Zero stated in The Structural Engineer, ‘They showed us many fascinating slides’ [Eaton] continued, ‘ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster’. (Structural Engineer, September 3, 2002, p. 6; emphasis added.)

Sarah Atlas was part of New Jersey's Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue and was one of the first on the scene at Ground Zero with her canine partner Anna. She reported in Penn Arts and Sciences, summer 2002, ‘Nobody's going to be alive.' Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet. (Penn, 2002; emphasis added.)

The observation of molten metal at Ground Zero was emphasized publicly by Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for the design of the World Trade Center Towers, who reported that “As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running.” (Williams, 2001, p. 3; emphasis added.)

A video clip provides eye-witness evidence regarding this metal at ground zero: http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/red_hot_ground_zero_low_quality.wmv .

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/hotSlag.jpg

The photograph above shows solid metal slag at salmon-to-yellow-hot temperature (approx. 1550 - 1900 oF, 845 - 1040 oC) being extracted from ground zero. The temperature is well above the melting temperatures of lead and aluminum, and these metals can evidently be ruled out since they would be runny liquids at much lower (cherry-red or below) temperatures. However, the observed hot specimen could be structural steel (from the building) or iron (from a thermite reaction) or a combination of the two.

Original Link:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc_hotspots.html

The following image is published by the US Geological Survey. Results of Airborne Visible/Infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS) remote sensing data and interpretations show the distribution and intensity of thermal hot spots in the area in and around the World Trade Center on September 16 and 23, 2001.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/hotspot.key.tgif.gif

Hot spot A is located in the debris pile of WTC 7. A thermite detonation in the basement of this building would have burned at temperatures greater than 2500ºC. The temperature of the hot spot is 727ºC
Hot spot G is located in the debris pile of WTC 2. This building contained only office fires when it collapsed (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc_fire.htm). The temperature of the hot spot is 747ºC.Kerosene used in lamps and jet fuel does not burn at a high enough temperature to melt steel. Molten steel found deep underground could not be produced by the fires above moving underground after the collapse. Steel and iron have similair melting points. Create a fire out of a kerosene soaked office desk you have chopped up in a pot belly stove, does you stove turn red hot and start to melt? Have all the air intakes open and even blow some air in there with a fan, is the stove going to melt? Next try burying the stove for five days under rubble while pouring water on it. Is it red hot when you take it out? Did it turn into a liquid and solidify? Try placing a steel can, or a tin can, or even some aluminium foil in a camp fire and getting it to turn into liquid or glow red hot.

Thermite reaction explosives produce molten iron as they burn with an extremely intense exothermic reaction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exothermic_reaction). Thermite contains its own supply of oxygen, and does not require any external source such as air. Consequently, it cannot be smothered and may ignite in any environment, given sufficient initial heat. It will burn just as well while underwater, for example, and cannot even be extinguished with water, as water sprayed on a thermite reaction will instantly be boiled into steam. This, combined with the extremely high temperatures generated, makes thermite reactions extremely hazardous even when appropriate precautions are taken.

A photograph has become available, evidently showing the solidified slag from this molten material with entrained rubble. This lump of once liquid metal is stored (as of November 2005) in a warehouse in New York, the photograph can be viewed here:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Please let me know if you require more evidence to prove that explosives were used in the basements of the twin towers to bring them down or if you are interested in discussing this.

Most of this post can be referenced to Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse? By Steven E. Jones, Department of Physics and Astronomy, Brigham Young University. Indeed? Done to start a new world order a takeover by very diabolical thinkers.shatering the united states of americas constutition and eliminating their closet enemies by waking up the sleeping giant as admiral Yamamoto said.theirby forcing u.s. military intervention in the mid east.never forget war is a racket.this being said never trust a politican their motives are pure profit$ :deal: :evil: :cheers:

[bigjon]

Kerosene used in lamps and jet fuel does not burn at a high enough temperature to melt steel. Molten steel found deep underground could not be produced by the fires above moving underground after the collapse. Steel and iron have similair melting points. Create a fire out of a kerosene soaked office desk you have chopped up in a pot belly stove, does you stove turn red hot and start to melt? Have all the air intakes open and even blow some air in there with a fan, is the stove going to melt? Next try burying the stove for five days under rubble while pouring water on it. Is it red hot when you take it out? Did it turn into a liquid and solidify? Try placing a steel can, or a tin can, or even some aluminium foil in a camp fire and getting it to turn into liquid or glow red hot.

Energy brings metal up to those temperatures. The question not asked by the docu-drama "experts" is - what was the total energy of compression released and exerted on the base superstructure at the time of implosion/collapse ?

A thermite cut of the frame would have been too obvious to the public’s eye PRIOR to the building collapse. Same with the so called explosive charges - instead of the blow-out compression burst of collapsing floors/framework seen as the building imploded. Compression loads can and do easily transverse the box-girder frame several floors below the impact zone.

Those so called thermal explosive events would have occured at the base of the building, and would have been photographed and recorded well before the building collapse but no one wants to admit it. Thermite burns so hot it would have been like bolts of flashing lighting going off at ground level or where ever the so call charges were placed. There should have been a brilliant blinding light seen (from the street outside) at any close proximity window or doorway.

It boggles the mind to understand the amount of energy required to build these skyscrapers over the years of construction - the same amount of energy is released in just a few seconds as it falls - kinetic energy released in a collapse of a building that size. So much so, it can easilt melt steel - few can wrap their minds around it fact. The purveyors of docu-dramas counts on the general ignorance of the public.


.

From what the Professor has said it appears that the explosions would be deep in the interior and low down in the building, where the dust and debris excluded a clear visual of any explosions.

On your other point I agree that an enormous amount of energy is expended to hoist up and to form the steel and concrete that make up a modern skyscraper. If the fire caused a weakening and a failure of the support structure, the kinetic energy released by the falling portion of the structure would be opposed by the energy required to shear, crush and break the structure below, thus slowing the descent, but that's not what happened, so your picture is badly flawed.

[Halophyte]

... the kinetic energy released by the falling portion of the structure would be opposed by the energy required to shear, crush and break the structure below, thus slowing the descent, but that's not what happened, so your picture is badly flawed.

Not once it started to collapse. Each floor of structural steel and concrete was not designed to support the impact of the floors above. There is a huge difference between static weight and kinetic weight of a moving mass. Once the collapse began there would be nothing to stop it.

Simple physics.

Calculating the kinetic energy of a single floor (or two) dropping just ten or twenty feet is beyond the static load limits of a single story section below. These buildings collapsed from within and took out the perimeter structure around it. Basically sucking the framework down with the interior structure (remember they were attached).

I've seen a 5400 pound H-beam dropped only twenty feet onto a pile of plate steel during a construction project (the rigger was using the wrong size clevis). Thank god no one was hurt or crushed. Where the beam impacted the plates - the resulting slag splatter from the impact looked like it was welded. Few folks realize that there is something in industry called impact forging. The temperature of the metal after impact forging is hot enough to flash water to steam or burn flesh. And that's nothing compared to the crushing energy of those towers collapsing.

After twenty-five years, I'm out of heavy engineering running my own business now, it's very easy to loose an arm or leg or be crushed by the slightest mistake.

.

[honu5050]

I posted once awhile back that the towers may of been built in a manor in which lets say "inocently" when the time came to demolilsh them it could be done without endangering the surrounding area and cost effective.or perhapes this was called for by future minded people? and when the timing was perfect the plan implymented.think of what was transpiering in the mid east when the wtc was designed. and who in 2001 on 9/11/01 had building #7 occupied.and who our intel community backed? the FED conspired in 1913....long time? in this kind of world long range planing is the key to secuess.war is a racket....and timing IS everything.are the american people to late to mend this crap? guess we shall see.I'm no Professional but they do very good work.nice job but when one has all thats needed it simplyfies matter$ considerably.:deal: :evil: :hmmmm: don't just look at the wtc job but the whole situation. time makes some loose track and timing IS of the essance.:thinkey:

[Ponce Cuba]

You guys are to danm smart for my taste but even a dumb person like myself can see that it was an "implosion" that brought down not one, or two but three buildings.......what do you think that the chances are that ALL three building would fall the same way on their own? no way in hell.

[bigjon]

Not once it started to collapse. Each floor of structural steel and concrete was not designed to support the impact of the floors above. There is a huge difference between static weight and kinetic weight of a moving mass. Once the collapse began there would be nothing to stop it.

Simple physics.

Calculating the kinetic energy of a single floor (or two) dropping just ten or twenty feet is beyond the static load limits of a single story section below. These buildings collapsed from within and took out the perimeter structure around it. Basically sucking the framework down with the interior structure (remember they were attached).

I've seen a 5400 pound H-beam dropped only twenty feet onto a pile of plate steel during a construction project (the rigger was using the wrong size clevis). Thank god no one was hurt or crushed. Where the beam impacted the plates - the resulting slag splatter from the impact looked like it was welded. Few folks realize that there is something in industry called impact forging. The temperature of the metal after impact forging is hot enough to flash water to steam or burn flesh. And that's nothing compared to the crushing energy of those towers collapsing.

After twenty-five years, I'm out of heavy engineering running my own business now, it's very easy to loose an arm or leg or be crushed by the slightest mistake.

.
Well I know your analysis is wrong, as each succeeding floor was built to hold up all of the above floors. There were no significant fires below the impact point and that structure would have been totally intact (absent the obvious use of explosives) Your example of falling steel being converted into heat is a very good demonstration of the laws of conservation of energy, when the kinetic energy is converted from motion to heat at the point of impact. As the floors fall they encounter the resistance of the floors below and since the floors above weigh much less than the mass of the floors below the kinetic energy would quickly dissipate as heat energy easily absorbed by the more massive floors below. Your analysis seems to indicate that the breaking of the steel below would add to the energy of the system. You seem to have discovered a new free energy system.

[GREENSILVERHORN]

Not once it started to collapse. Each floor of structural steel and concrete was not designed to support the impact of the floors above. There is a huge difference between static weight and kinetic weight of a moving mass. Once the collapse began there would be nothing to stop it.

Simple physics.

Calculating the kinetic energy of a single floor (or two) dropping just ten or twenty feet is beyond the static load limits of a single story section below. These buildings collapsed from within and took out the perimeter structure around it. Basically sucking the framework down with the interior structure (remember they were attached).

I've seen a 5400 pound H-beam dropped only twenty feet onto a pile of plate steel during a construction project (the rigger was using the wrong size clevis). Thank god no one was hurt or crushed. Where the beam impacted the plates - the resulting slag splatter from the impact looked like it was welded. Few folks realize that there is something in industry called impact forging. The temperature of the metal after impact forging is hot enough to flash water to steam or burn flesh. And that's nothing compared to the crushing energy of those towers collapsing.

After twenty-five years, I'm out of heavy engineering running my own business now, it's very easy to loose an arm or leg or be crushed by the slightest mistake.

.

Halo, I am thinking the total view here is being lost in the details, as most of these scientists and engineers get lost into. The bigger picture is where the resounding conspiracy "lies". Or there is just too many variables to predict the single act but in multiples, we must triple our variables. When you get there another certain commonality seems pervasive.

Are you trying to disprove set explosives? Or the fact all 3 fell in the same manor.

When a tree falls in the forest, do other trees feel it?

Angularity of collapse should be a forgone conclusion, because when dominoes fall they fall non-linear. Small weight diferences and friction multiply in a chain reaction to create this non - linear equasion.

better analogy a slinky going down the steps. freefall = no steps slinky just falls to the ground.

[Libertarian_Guard]

Well I know your analysis is wrong, as each succeeding floor was built to hold up all of the above floors. There were no significant fires below the impact point and that structure would have been totally intact (absent the obvious use of explosives) Your example of falling steel being converted into heat is a very good demonstration of the laws of conservation of energy, when the kinetic energy is converted from motion to heat at the point of impact. As the floors fall they encounter the resistance of the floors below and since the floors above weigh much less than the mass of the floors below the kinetic energy would quickly dissipate as heat energy easily absorbed by the more massive floors below. Your analysis seems to indicate that the breaking of the steel below would add to the energy of the system. You seem to have discovered a new free energy system.


bigjon

Your understanding of physics is rudimentary at best. If you had submitted the above paragraph to any H.S. physics instructor he would have crossed it out with a big red X and asked that you please stay within the established boundaries of the laws of physics if you expect to pass the class.

It should be clear to any objective reader that Halo has long ago cleaned your clock in this debate and now you’re just resorting to the Eveready Bunny technique by just coming and coming …….. with nothing of value to add.

Just because something doesn’t make sense to you ( as we can’t always have an understanding of every event ) there is no logic in latching on to an even less likely theory ( with no supporting evidence ) and deluding yourself into thinking that you’ve somehow unearthed some fantastic piece of the puzzle involving a conspiracy that would have grown so large in the planning stages that it would have certainly flopped before its execution simply due to all the people involved.

[Ponce Cuba]

Guard? no need to be insulting to another member, if you think that hes wrong tell him why "with your own theories"......:rant:

By by way to all of you with you PhD and XyZ and so on......building seven was a lot smaller than the Twin Towers and yet it fell the same way....your reason for that?

And once again "the invicible plane" at the Pentago? where did it go? passengers? seats? luggage? frame? engines? ...... no good explanation for any of this :confused:

If you know the answer to any of the above then tell me without your PhD talk, ok ? thanks :clap2:

[GREENSILVERHORN]

If you know the answer to any of the above then tell me without your PhD talk, ok ? thanks :clap2:

Careful what you wish for Ponce.

You are right in your conclusions, this much I know to be my truth aswell.

The rest is propoganda.

O.K. I won't be that closed minded, I will just say that any evidence to the contrary is probably tainted.:proud:

[bigjon]

bigjon

Your understanding of physics is rudimentary at best. If you had submitted the above paragraph to any H.S. physics instructor he would have crossed it out with a big red X and asked that you please stay within the established boundaries of the laws of physics if you expect to pass the class.

It should be clear to any objective reader that Halo has long ago cleaned your clock in this debate and now you’re just resorting to the Eveready Bunny technique by just coming and coming …….. with nothing of value to add.

Just because something doesn’t make sense to you ( as we can’t always have an understanding of every event ) there is no logic in latching on to an even less likely theory ( with no supporting evidence ) and deluding yourself into thinking that you’ve somehow unearthed some fantastic piece of the puzzle involving a conspiracy that would have grown so large in the planning stages that it would have certainly flopped before its execution simply due to all the people involved.
If you have something of value to contribute to this debate other than your vote for halo's argument please do so.

Why do you keep on with this "something that doesn't make sense to you" argument?

This whole thing makes perfect sense The Neo-Con's who are the ones running the "really big show" got their excuse to go wage war on Arabs using (might also say using up, as in destroying) the goy's army while at the same time making megabucks for themselves and their friends.

It probably doesn't make sense to you, but include me out of your confusion.


Please tell me specifically where anything I said goes against the laws of physics.

I believe Halo's argument to be patently absurd, first he presupposes a fire at a temp that has never happened without being fanned, a fire that would have created very little smoke if had reached the temps he assumes to have happened and yet this fire of his imagination never cooperated with his vision, because it kept on pouring out black smoke. Then this magical fire has to eat its way through the cement fire proofing to get at the floor system that are spec'd to withstand 2000 degrees C for 6 hours. Even his magical force feed fire could only reach a max temp of 1000 degrees C, because to go beyond that he'd need a source of pure oxygen to fan the flames.

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html
Some defenders of the official story have claimed that the fires were indeed very big, turning the buildings into “towering infernos.” But all the evidence counts against this claim, especially with regard to the south tower, which collapsed first. This tower was struck between floors 78 and 84, so that region is where the fire would have been the biggest. And yet Brian Clark, a survivor, said that when he got down to the 80th floor: "You could see through the wall and the cracks and see flames . . . just licking up, not a roaring inferno, just quiet flames licking up and smoke sort of eking through the wall."[14] (http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html#_edn14) Likewise, one of the fire chiefs who had reached the 78th floor found only “two isolated pockets of fire.”[15] (http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html#_edn15)

And the final vision is all 47 main columns give way at once and all of this kinetic energy is released to crash into the floor below and his vision says that when steel breaks its force is contributed to falling building. No, you say, not all 47. How many break? 1, 2, 10? :eek:

[Large Sarge]

one other point to consider is this,

I believe when scientific papers are submitted, like Dr. Stephen Jones paper, they are open for review, meaning other scientists around the country can try and take it apart...

sort of a "peer review" process...

if the paper survives that, I believe it is published...

it is interesting to note, I have heard nothing from any other scientists trying to take his paper apart...