Zionists Exposed by Islamic Academic

[Reformed Idealist]

[quote=Large Sarge]

it wants a peaceful nuclear program and it will not be allowed it...

quote]

Wow, you actually believe a country with vast oil resources and enough to export is having some energy problem that is needs to solve with nuclear power plants? You'll believe anything...

By "us" I mean the U.S.A. - who do you mean?
By "them" I mean anyone allied in a way that is opposed to U.S. interests, or anyone working against U.S. interests. Not a big leap. Every country has a "us" and has a "them" You don't we are a "them" to Iran?

But we can all be one happy, global "us" if you want us to be. World peace has been so easy to come by if we just wish hard enough.

[hoarder]

Well, I think it perhaps simplistic to think we invaded anyone just because we are greater than them. Me too, but I didn't fall for the marketing. Since when is a nation going to war to defend itself or its interests or to secure resources (oil) unusual? Is it wrong? Well, not necessarily. But if it comes down to us or them, why do you have to feel guilty for choosing "us"? It hasn't come down to us or them and it is not of strategic value to us because the consequences are too great.

In this day with nuclear weapons a real entity, why is wrong to feel threatened when Iran states they are going to make one and use it? Isn't that a threat? If a country makes them and cunningly remains quiet with the intention of using them, what then? "Pre-emptive" attacks are a dangerous idea. If we use them it will give China and others the signal to destroy us for their own self-preservation, at least the media there will present it that way. I do not trust our rulers to make pre-emptive attacks at their own discretion. They can't even secure our own borders.

Now, for your China analogy. Is it wrong for them to invade us? Maybe, maybe not. What if they felt it was in their vital interests? Of course I am going to say its wrong, but they may not feel that way? Shouldn't we do everything possible to defend against just such a scenario including securing our access to resources - i.e. oil? We should try securing our borders and not allowing any more of them to come here and take notes. Behaving like a rogue nation will not secure us. If this war is just a cover for securing our oil access, and all of the WMD/terrorism stuff is all just made up, this war may still be justified if it leads to secure access to resources for us and makes us strong enough to prevent or defeat a threat from China or others. Weakening ourselves, or not building up our military, or depriving ourselves of cheap resources may be enough to ENCOURAGE another country to invade or attack us.This war is not for oil, it's for Jewish supremacy, the oil corruption is to keep the useful idiots among us busy. Keeping all the military-industrial establishment people busy trying to get their fair share of the spoils serves to blind them and prevent dissent against our real rulers.
The fact that you are discussing this in terms of strategic value at all puts you ahead of most people I discuss this with, but you're strategies are not fully thought out.

[sbgb]

Another show to check out is Michael Collins Piper's new show on RBN, it is called The Piper Report. In fact Daryl Bradford Smith was a call in guest today. Interesting stuff!

http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Piper06.html



J in AZ,

I like the Piper interview even better!

Nazis were crypto Jews?!

And our resident George Bush is a Crypto Jew and Daryl is going to reveal the evidence.

At the end Daryl gives a lot of info for research.

"Ladies and Gentlemen, we are the Goyim."

I've already added this book to my Amazon basket with free shipping $15

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1569802351/102-4517360-8317754?v=glance&n=283155

51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With the Nazis (Hardcover)
by Lenni Brenner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Lenni%20Brenner&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/102-4517360-8317754)


http://www.jfkmontreal.com/johnson_highlights.htm
LBJ was Secretly Jewish

[Large Sarge]

[quote=Large Sarge]

it wants a peaceful nuclear program and it will not be allowed it...

quote]

Wow, you actually believe a country with vast oil resources and enough to export is having some energy problem that is needs to solve with nuclear power plants? You'll believe anything...

By "us" I mean the U.S.A. - who do you mean?
By "them" I mean anyone allied in a way that is opposed to U.S. interests, or anyone working against U.S. interests. Not a big leap. Every country has a "us" and has a "them" You don't we are a "them" to Iran?

But we can all be one happy, global "us" if you want us to be. World peace has been so easy to come by if we just wish hard enough.

Iran has the right develop any energy source it wants, Remember Scott Ritter & Hans Blix telling the world that Iraq had no WMD's?
Well They are saying the same thing about Iran's Nuclear weapons program (you need to shut off Faux News)


Regarding "Us Versus Them", Iran is absolutely no threat to the U.S. militarily...

We will not see a million angy Iranians landing on our shores anytime soon, we are out of missile range....

The biggest threat Iran poses is with its oil reserves and shutting off the straits of hormuz, which means the wise course of action is to leave them alone....

"you go around the world poking rattle snakes, you are eventually going to get bit"

our foreign policy is absolutely insane, how you can try and defend it is beyond me....

"us versus them"

Maybe we need to get some white hats and black hats huh? Hand out the revolvers pardner, we are going to get those bad guys over there....

if only it were that simple "Us versus them"

I can tell you have no family in the U.S. military....

"Us versus them" for you is really "Someone else versus someone else"

[Ponce Cuba]

Awards, medals, money, Nobel Medal....... not everything in life is about advancement, some people only want to be happy with their fruit trees their two donkeys in a nice little house with their wife and kids.

The Jews with all their smartness are always getting into trouble with the world and the reason for that is not for being Jews but for the way that they act as Jews.

After WWIII maybe everyone will go back to donkeys and bikes and will better off by it.

"When the truth comes into the light the lies will hide in the dark"... Ponce

[Reformed Idealist]

[quote=Reformed Idealist]


We will not see a million angy Iranians landing on our shores anytime soon, we are out of missile range....

The biggest threat Iran poses is with its oil reserves and shutting off the straits of hormuz, which means the wise course of action is to leave them alone....

"you go around the world poking rattle snakes, you are eventually going to get bit"

our foreign policy is absolutely insane, how you can try and defend it is beyond me....

"

That is way too simplistic - countries now have ways other than landing craft and invasion to threaten our country. You just like saying that because it sounds good.

Isolationism and telling the world you have no willpower to act militarily is INVITING problems that haven't even surfaced yet. I know this approach worked so well in the 1930's with Hitler.


Perhaps our foreign policy is insane, but only less insane than theirs.

BTW - love your Faux news crack - only have heard that 1,000,000 times - very fresh and original.

As for Ponce's crack that everyone will be better off after WWIII with their donkey's and bikes - Gee Peter Pan, that sounds great!

[Ponce Cuba]

"Peter Pan" hummmmmmmmmmmm how about "Peter Ponce" hahahahahaha

[Large Sarge]

[quote=Large Sarge]

That is way too simplistic - countries now have ways other than landing craft and invasion to threaten our country. You just like saying that because it sounds good.

Isolationism and telling the world you have no willpower to act militarily is INVITING problems that haven't even surfaced yet. I know this approach worked so well in the 1930's with Hitler.


Perhaps our foreign policy is insane, but only less insane than theirs.

BTW - love your Faux news crack - only have heard that 1,000,000 times - very fresh and original.

As for Ponce's crack that everyone will be better off after WWIII with their donkey's and bikes - Gee Peter Pan, that sounds great!

Switzerland has not foreign policy problems, the founding fathers wanted isolationism....
"Commerce with all foreign relations with none"

Hitler could not even make it across the english channel, what makes you think he could make it across the atlantic...

You are either a jew or hopelessly brainwashed form Govt shooling...

This is really quite sad to see you out there defending the Govt propaganda machine....

Notice how we are in 140+ countries stirring up trouble..... and you call our foreign policy "Good"

that todays world justifies "preemptive attack and invasion"

just remember "What comes around goes around"

Stupidity is what we are embarking on....

Who care what Iran does....

If Iran and Israel want to duke it out in the desert, let em have at it, it is none of our concern...

if Jewish americans feel concern over Iran, send them personal checks
not tax dollars....

real simple...

Israel is not our concern, never has been....

if Jews want to defend it, send your own money, go enlist in their Army, etc

Stop sending my tax dollars and our sons and daughters to die for Israel....

[Reformed Idealist]

[quote=Reformed Idealist]

Switzerland has not foreign policy problems, the founding fathers wanted isolationism....
"Commerce with all foreign relations with none"
quote]

Works for a tiny, isolated nation, not for a superpower, but still, comparing apples to oranges is what you excel at, evidently

[quote=Large Sarge][quote=Reformed Idealist]


Hitler could not even make it across the english channel, what makes you think he could make it across the atlantic....

Who said he could - but which would have been better, WWII or no WWII? The Holocaust, or no Holocaust? My point had nothing to do with American involvement in WWII, just the appeasement strategy which allowed him to become the power that he did, much to the world's later chagrin. I personally think Russia would have eventually defeated Germany even without British or the U.S.'s involvement. But I guess America was just supposed to hang their allies out to dry. Like the see no, hear no, do no evil monkey.





[quote=Reformed Idealist]


You are either a jew or hopelessly brainwashed form Govt shooling...

This is really quite sad to see you out there defending the Govt propaganda machine....

Notice how we are in 140+ countries stirring up trouble..... and you call our foreign policy "Good".



Not a Jew, but Jesus Christ was a Jew.

Stirring up trouble in 140 countries are we? Yes, some of those humanitarian missions are real nasty affairs. Is this what you prefer? "Sorry, Mr. Tsunami victim, but no help for you! Sorry Mr. Famine victim, but the U.S. just told you to jump in a lake. Can't help you because we are isolationists. Too bad."

[Reformed Idealist]

[quote=Reformed Idealist]

Switzerland has not foreign policy problems, the founding fathers wanted isolationism....
"Commerce with all foreign relations with none"
quote]

Works for a tiny, isolated nation, not for a superpower, but still, comparing apples to oranges is what you excel at, evidently

[quote=Large Sarge][quote=Reformed Idealist]


Hitler could not even make it across the english channel, what makes you think he could make it across the atlantic....

Who said he could - but which would have been better, WWII or no WWII? The Holocaust, or no Holocaust? My point had nothing to do with American involvement in WWII, just the appeasement strategy which allowed him to become the power that he did, much to the world's later chagrin. I personally think Russia would have eventually defeated Germany even without British or the U.S.'s involvement. But I guess America was just supposed to hang their allies out to dry. Like the see no, hear no, do no evil monkey, if you just pretend you don't see the problem, then it really must not exist. See how easy your foreign policy is?





[quote=Reformed Idealist]


You are either a jew or hopelessly brainwashed form Govt shooling...

This is really quite sad to see you out there defending the Govt propaganda machine....

Notice how we are in 140+ countries stirring up trouble..... and you call our foreign policy "Good".



Not a Jew, but Jesus Christ was a Jew.

Stirring up trouble in 140 countries are we? Yes, some of those humanitarian missions are real nasty affairs. Is this what you prefer? "Sorry, Mr. Tsunami victim, but no help for you! Sorry Mr. Famine victim, but the U.S. just told you to jump in a lake. Can't help you because we are isolationists. Too bad."

[Large Sarge]

Switzerland versus the U.S.

Apples and oranges eh?

Superpower versus Wannabe?

The Swiss understand world affairs better than some dumb schmuck from the U.S. Europe has been "War Torn" for hundreds of years... and they were stuck in the middle of it...
So they had a militia, and declared neutrality...

You speak of Appeasement? How is it appeasement if the war never physically touches our borders?
Who are we appeasing by saying, this is a Europena affair, if private citizens want to donate time, money etc, then by all means have at it

seems to me we are appeasing mexico not Hitler....

How about we try defending our own borders before we go defend someone elses...

You still do not get the big picture with all of this, you know why the swiss have the highest standard of living in the world? (and one of the strongest currencies)
Because they saw how stupid war really is, and that no one really wins at it... some are slightly less beat up is all... there are no winners in war (except the arms merchants)

Hitler was done as soon as he invaded Russia....

"pretending to not see a problem"
"See no evil etc"

How about todays situation "Pretending to see a threat and a problem with Iran for the U.S."

anytime you put the govt into this, you putting the whole nation behind it...

so when we act stupidly and committ atrocities (torture, genocide etc), then the whole nation is represented....

not to mention that Force is sued to collect the tax dollars to support this idiotic endeavor....

Sad and pathetic really....

You knwo, I have often thoguht I would give up all my P.M. proftis to see this insanity stopped, to see return to a sane foreign policy...

You need to understand what the U.S did to Iran during the reing of the Shah and his secret police...
We supported his death squads terrorizing local iranians....

now we pay the price....

They hate the U.S. Govt (rightfully so)

[Reformed Idealist]

You speak of Appeasement? How is it appeasement if the war never physically touches our borders?
Who are we appeasing by saying, this is a Europena affair, if private citizens want to donate time, money etc, then by all means have at it



How is this appeasement? We'll if we had never supported Britain in 1940-41, if we had never entered the war, Germany may still have lost WWII. So it was a bad idea for us to get involved because the war never touched our borders? Think about what would have happened. The Iron Curtain would have descended west of Paris. There would have been no NATO. The Cold War probably would have been lost by the U.S.

You have got this all backwards.

The U.S. should have opposed Hitler from 1934 on instead of playing possum. That might have avoided WWII altogether, avoided the Soviet bloc, avoided many of the problems we had the past 50 years.

Your method is too naive.

[Large Sarge]

How is this appeasement? We'll if we had never supported Britain in 1940-41, if we had never entered the war, Germany may still have lost WWII. So it was a bad idea for us to get involved because the war never touched our borders? Think about what would have happened. The Iron Curtain would have descended west of Paris. There would have been no NATO. The Cold War probably would have been lost by the U.S.

You have got this all backwards.

The U.S. should have opposed Hitler from 1934 on instead of playing possum. That might have avoided WWII altogether, avoided the Soviet bloc, avoided many of the problems we had the past 50 years.

Your method is too naive.
I still think you miss what a Border really is, and more specifically where the U.S. border stops.....

My method is Naiive you say? Why not telling that Cindy Sheehan and some of the other families who have directly suffered from your "oh so wise choice to invade"

Hitler and Stalin could have battled until the cows come home, it was none of our affair....


There is a term called a porcupine defense, it was what the founders wanted...

You do not go up and mess with a porcupine because it will hurt you....

That is what a militia is all about....

Its great for defense (the nice little porcupine no one will touch), but it sucks at offense....

Today we have a shark for a program, and the whole world is terrified of us....

[Reformed Idealist]

I still think you miss what a Border really is, and more specifically where the U.S. border stops.....

My method is Naiive you say? Why not telling that Cindy Sheehan and some of the other families who have directly suffered from your "oh so wise choice to invade"

Hitler and Stalin could have battled until the cows come home, it was none of our affair....


There is a term called a porcupine defense, it was what the founders wanted...

You do not go up and mess with a porcupine because it will hurt you....

That is what a militia is all about....

Its great for defense (the nice little porcupine no one will touch), but it sucks at offense....

Today we have a shark for a program, and the whole world is terrified of us....

"Hitler and Stalin could have battled until the cows come home, it was none of our affair...."

Here is where you have just lost it. Yes, they would have battled it out. Stalin would have won and imposed communism not just on the Eastern bloc, but Germany and all of Europe all the way to France and Spain.

How do you think we would have fared this past 60 years with the U.S.S.R stretching from Manchuria to Paris?

We had no option to sit back and let those two duke it out.

The porcupine defense! Yes, that is how all superpowers do it. That is a perfect recipe for an isolationist, small country, but not for the U.S. We're just supposed to watch as our enemies grow more powerful and closer and hope they never every decide to harm us, eh? No, thanks. I think this is where your Peter Pan school of human nature diverges from mine.

Would Cindy Sheehan felt much different if her son Casey died in a terrorist attack? What if he hadn't joined the army of his own free will and instead worked on the 92nd floor of the WTC?

What about my family's close relationship with missionairies that were killed by Muslims in the Philippines? That's OK just to let them get killed? No reaction? This is called death by a thousand paper cuts and is not a better alternative.

[Large Sarge]

"Hitler and Stalin could have battled until the cows come home, it was none of our affair...."

Here is where you have just lost it. Yes, they would have battled it out. Stalin would have won and imposed communism not just on the Eastern bloc, but Germany and all of Europe all the way to France and Spain.

How do you think we would have fared this past 60 years with the U.S.S.R stretching from Manchuria to Paris?

We had no option to sit back and let those two duke it out.

The porcupine defense! Yes, that is how all superpowers do it. That is a perfect recipe for an isolationist, small country, but not for the U.S. We're just supposed to watch as our enemies grow more powerful and closer and hope they never every decide to harm us, eh? No, thanks. I think this is where your Peter Pan school of human nature diverges from mine.

Would Cindy Sheehan felt much different if her son Casey died in a terrorist attack? What if he hadn't joined the army of his own free will and instead worked on the 92nd floor of the WTC?

What about my family's close relationship with missionairies that were killed by Muslims in the Philippines? That's OK just to let them get killed? No reaction? This is called death by a thousand paper cuts and is not a better alternative.

You are still missing where the U.S. border stops....

The rest of the world is a nasty, dangerous place, it always has been,,,,,

it is not our reponsibility or right to clean it up....

do you want to know why your friends were likely killed in the phillipines, you see way back when, we sent our Navy to the phillipines, I believe it was President Wilson.... Back in 1920's or so....

anyway, it was a "Drummed up little war", supposedly about something.....
But really about nothing as usual... we killed thousands of thousands of phillipinos

Oh i remember now, we were taking the phillipines from the spanish, "the Game of Empire" had really started...

like all good games, there were winners and losers, unfortunately a lot of innocent phillipinos were losers......

just like the iranians in the 60's and 70's they became acutely aware of U.S. Foreign policy.....

You seem to think we had to fight the cold war? Wher eis the evidence?

You confuse the U.S. Empire with the U.S.

Big difference...

We did not need to fight the cold war, Russia would have collapsed on its own...

once again, whether it collapsed or not is no affair of the U.S. govt... unless we were drectly attacked we had no business there....

[Reformed Idealist]

We did not need to fight the cold war, Russia would have collapsed on its own...

once again, whether it collapsed or not is no affair of the U.S. govt... unless we were drectly attacked we had no business there....


Your power to only selectively pay attention to facts is truly amazing. You are saying that if the U.S.S.R. had 1/2 the globe under its belt, with all of those extra people and resources, and was not stressed economically by an arms race with the U.S. (since we would be just minding our own business) and had they been allowed to put nuclear missiles in our backyard, and didn't have to divert enormous resources fighting proxy wars with the U.S. that they would have collapsed on its own???? Oh boy, that is a good one. I think maybe you need to rethink that.

[Large Sarge]

Your power to only selectively pay attention to facts is truly amazing. You are saying that if the U.S.S.R. had 1/2 the globe under its belt, with all of those extra people and resources, and was not stressed economically by an arms race with the U.S. (since we would be just minding our own business) and had they been allowed to put nuclear missiles in our backyard, and didn't have to divert enormous resources fighting proxy wars with the U.S. that they would have collapsed on its own???? Oh boy, that is a good one. I think maybe you need to rethink that.

You still do not understand the porcupine defense do you?

You ever go up and pet a porcupine?

I doubt it.....

You also have the misguided notion that Empire get stronger as they expand (like the game of risk or something)

it does not work that in reality, take our wonderful adventure in Iraq....

in the game the U.S. after capturing Iraq would have all this extra oil each turn, and would be stronger for it....

of course in real life we have less oil and our military is more depleted...

As Armies expand they get weaker, same with empires...

it is not what your Govt School books taught you...

Hitler got weaker as he expanded...
Same with Russia
Just look at their Fiasco in Afghanistan in the 80's

[Reformed Idealist]

You still do not understand the porcupine defense do you?

You ever go up and pet a porcupine?

I doubt it.....

You also have the misguided notion that Empire get stronger as they expand (like the game of risk or something)

it does not work that in reality, take our wonderful adventure in Iraq....

in the game the U.S. after capturing Iraq would have all this extra oil each turn, and would be stronger for it....

of course in real life we have less oil and our military is more depleted...

As Armies expand they get weaker, same with empires...

it is not what your Govt School books taught you...

Hitler got weaker as he expanded...
Same with Russia
Just look at their Fiasco in Afghanistan in the 80's

I understand the porcupine defense just fine. But if you think that would work for the U.S.... It works when a superior country invades a technologically inferior, but spacious country (Russia invading Afghanistan, etc.) Not the other way around. How did the porcupine defense turn out for Kuwait in the early 90's by the way...

You want to play porcupine in the U.S. to a foreign invader? That is just too nauseating to think about. An enemy running amok in the U.S. burning our landmarks and killing our people and us just waiting for him to get pricked too many times before giving up? I'll take my version of the U.S. over yours any day. You haven't even really thought this out. You just are fascinated with the way it sounds or looks on paper.

[Large Sarge]

I understand the porcupine defense just fine. But if you think that would work for the U.S.... It works when a superior country invades a technologically inferior, but spacious country (Russia invading Afghanistan, etc.) Not the other way around. How did the porcupine defense turn out for Kuwait in the early 90's by the way...

You want to play porcupine in the U.S. to a foreign invader? That is just too nauseating to think about. An enemy running amok in the U.S. burning our landmarks and killing our people and us just waiting for him to get pricked too many times before giving up? I'll take my version of the U.S. over yours any day. You haven't even really thought this out. You just are fascinated with the way it sounds or looks on paper.

Traditionally defenders are given at least 6 to 1 advantage in battle, if it is a guerilla style war, then it can go as high as 25 to 1 even 100 to 1

meaning that you need a 100 troops for every defender...
That is how effective the porcupine defense is...

Regarding Kuwait, we never really knew how it was going to turn out, the middle east is a troubled region by its very nature....

Seems that defending kuwait is a Kuwaiti problem, and not a U.S. problem...

Saddam wa sno real threat, Iran is the real powerhouse in the region....

Remember my analyis on defensive odd, 6 to 1 minimum, most liken it to 25 to 1.....

Iran is purely defending its own territory....
it is not expanding and getting weaker, it is very rugged and mountainous territory, favoring the defender.... it can easily close the straits of hormuz...

in short Iran has some very very strong advantages in this conflict...


As far as the porcupine in the U.S.
Who is running amok? burning our landmarks? etc...
do you mean "Al-Ciada" or Mossad?
if you are referring to 9/11 and you still think Bin Laden did it, you need to read some archive material, because that gets beyond the scope of this thread...

the porcupine defense works, whether you like it or not...

Perhaps you like our Neo-con adventures, but I can assure you they will be very short lived if we attack iran....

Iran will bury the U.S. & The U. S. economy...

And like any good parasite, israel will destroy her host the United states,

I am not fascinated with how it looks on paper, although I like to read (especially non Govt books)

Iran will bury the U.S.

it will go down as the biggest blunder in history,

[Buchan]

The bad thing about Nobel prizes is that they were introduced long after the heyday of Islamic science, so I'm not surprised there are so few Arab or Muslim prizewinners. Here is a small sample of what they did accomplish back in the days:

Advances of Islamic Sciences I The set of pictures below tells about the advances of Islamic sciences before the modern era. Islamic scientists were respected then and many of their findings became the foundations or important components of the sciences that we know today. There is much written about how advanced Islamic science during medieval times. Taken from "THE WORLD OF ISLAM"- Faith, People, Culture" By Bernard Lewis. Copyright Thames and Hudson, 1992 http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/history/astrono.JPG Islamic Astronomy (dated 14th century): These 2 diagrams from Ibn ash-Shatir's Nihayat al-sul illustrate the first successful representation of the motions of Planet Mercury exclusively in terms of uniform circular rotations.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/history/astrlab1.JPG Spherical Astrolab (dated 1480): These were rare and the only one known to exist. The large ecliptic circle bears the names of the signs of the zodiac. The rete, or star map, is attached to the globe with pointers for nineteen fixed stars.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/history/astrlab2.JPG Astrolab (dated 9th century): This was for measuring the altitude of heavenly bodies above the horizon, and so determining (among other things) the time of day or night. Readings are taken by means of rotatable alidade, a diametrical rule with sights.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/history/sphere.JPG Celestial Sphere (dated 1285): This equipment is from Iran. It incorporates information derived from Abd ar-Rahman as-Sufi's Book of Fixed Stars.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/history/observe.JPG Observatory: At Samarqand, a great observatory was built. This trough supported a large arc erected in the meridian plane. Celestial bodies crossing this plane cast light through an opening at the arc's centre onto a graduated cylindrical base, from which their altitudes could be read off.
Being an amatuer astronomer myself, I'm especially impressed with the observatory above. Here is more info about it:

http://archive.muslimuzbekistan.com/eng/images/left.gif (http://archive.muslimuzbekistan.com/eng/ennews/special/uzbekistan/samarqand017.html#1) http://archive.muslimuzbekistan.com/images/uzbekistan/samarqand018.jpg (http://archive.muslimuzbekistan.com/images/uzbekistan/samarqand018.jpg) http://archive.muslimuzbekistan.com/eng/images/right.gif (http://archive.muslimuzbekistan.com/eng/ennews/special/uzbekistan/samarqand019.html#1) http://archive.muslimuzbekistan.com/eng/images/rightend.gif (http://archive.muslimuzbekistan.com/eng/ennews/special/uzbekistan/samarqand020.html#1)
Samarqand, Ulughbek Observatory
Ulughbek (Timur’s grandson) ruled the country for 40 years. During his rule Samarqand became one of the scientific centers of world during the Middle Ages. In Samarqand Ulughbek created a scientific school, which untied outstanding astronomers and mathematicians. Ulughbek was the founder of the unique construction of the observatory (1428-1429).
There was a gigantic marble sextant there, its radius was 40.212 meter and the length of the arc is 63 meters. The instrument was made in all details and was very precise. It was used to determine the coordinates of the Sun, the Moon and other planets. Ulughbek created the astronomic catalogue "Stars Tables". The preciseness of Samarqand astronomers' observatory surprises, because they did not use any optical instruments, only their eyes.


That's my 2 cents' worth... Now back to the arguing!

:boxing: :boxing: :boxing: :boxing:

[Reformed Idealist]

Traditionally defenders are given at least 6 to 1 advantage in battle, if it is a guerilla style war, then it can go as high as 25 to 1 even 100 to 1

meaning that you need a 100 troops for every defender...
That is how effective the porcupine defense is...

Regarding Kuwait, we never really knew how it was going to turn out, the middle east is a troubled region by its very nature....

Seems that defending kuwait is a Kuwaiti problem, and not a U.S. problem...

Saddam wa sno real threat, Iran is the real powerhouse in the region....

Remember my analyis on defensive odd, 6 to 1 minimum, most liken it to 25 to 1.....

Iran is purely defending its own territory....
it is not expanding and getting weaker, it is very rugged and mountainous territory, favoring the defender.... it can easily close the straits of hormuz...

in short Iran has some very very strong advantages in this conflict...


As far as the porcupine in the U.S.
Who is running amok? burning our landmarks? etc...
do you mean "Al-Ciada" or Mossad?
if you are referring to 9/11 and you still think Bin Laden did it, you need to read some archive material, because that gets beyond the scope of this thread...

the porcupine defense works, whether you like it or not...

Perhaps you like our Neo-con adventures, but I can assure you they will be very short lived if we attack iran....

Iran will bury the U.S. & The U. S. economy...

And like any good parasite, israel will destroy her host the United states,

I am not fascinated with how it looks on paper, although I like to read (especially non Govt books)

Iran will bury the U.S.

it will go down as the biggest blunder in history,

How are those Iraqi porcupines doing? 25 to 1 is it? Maybe the other way around in that case. Oops.

As far as a U.S. porcupine defense and invaders running amok. Nice to see you looking 6, 12 months in the future. Try 50-100 years. We lay down arms, weaken our military, pull every one inside our borders and wait. 50 years from now you don't see anyone eyeing the weakened U.S. China? No one? How about a reinvigorated Russia in 80 years? Hell, why not Mexico in 100 years? You'll just be content because out of the woodwork will spring 10,000,000 U.S. guerillas with .22 rifles and hunting knives. Gee, how charming.

If we had tried this approach the past 60 years, we may have already been invaded, who knows what would have happened.

Yes, throw your Switzerland example around some more. That will convince everyone. Two points there. 1) Switzerland bought its neutrality - where do you think the Nazies hid their loot, etc. and 2)If anyone thought Switzerland had any tactical advantage or resources necessary for another country, their neutrality would hardly be respected. How did Holland and Belgium's neutrality turn out in 1940?

[Reformed Idealist]

The bad thing about Nobel prizes is that they were introduced long after the heyday of Islamic science, so I'm not surprised there are so few Arab or Muslim prizewinners. Here is a small sample of what they did accomplish back in the days:
:boxing: :boxing: :boxing: :boxing:


Yes, yes, very interesting. Two things stand out. 1) Most of this is Persian, so to state this is Islamic science is stretching it a bit. 2)The West was in the midst of the Dark Ages. That is the reason these stand out is because no corresponding advances were coming out of the West. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of their scientific prowess that once the West rose again, these accomplishments dimmed in their significance.

[Large Sarge]

How are those Iraqi porcupines doing? 25 to 1 is it? Maybe the other way around in that case. Oops.

As far as a U.S. porcupine defense and invaders running amok. Nice to see you looking 6, 12 months in the future. Try 50-100 years. We lay down arms, weaken our military, pull every one inside our borders and wait. 50 years from now you don't see anyone eyeing the weakened U.S. China? No one? How about a reinvigorated Russia in 80 years? Hell, why not Mexico in 100 years? You'll just be content because out of the woodwork will spring 10,000,000 U.S. guerillas with .22 rifles and hunting knives. Gee, how charming.

If we had tried this approach the past 60 years, we may have already been invaded, who knows what would have happened.

Yes, throw your Switzerland example around some more. That will convince everyone. Two points there. 1) Switzerland bought its neutrality - where do you think the Nazies hid their loot, etc. and 2)If anyone thought Switzerland had any tactical advantage or resources necessary for another country, their neutrality would hardly be respected. How did Holland and Belgium's neutrality turn out in 1940?

Regarding Iraq, How do I put this politely.... "We lost" we had lost about 12-15 months ago... now it is just trying to hold it together until we get a new administration in office...

The Iraqi Guerillas are destroying our military, using IED's, Snipers, etc

I remember reading that a single Iraqi sniper tied up a whole marine platoon (30-40 troops) for a day and a half, killed 3-4 and wounded a dozen...

in the end, they called in airstrikes for the sniper, they never found his body...

He is probably still shooting up troops...

This occurs daily in Iraq, IED's kill and maim thousands.... no one is caught or captured...

You have a poor grasp of history and real world events.... (not trying to insult you, just being honest)

Switzerland did not buy its neutrality (Pay its way out of WW1 & WW2)
I used ot think they had great diplomats, like the ultimate used car salesman....

What they had was the militia defense, all males between 18-52 were in the military, and all males were expert at sniper shooting...
They also learned all the rank insignia of the opposing nations, and were taught to shoot colonels and generals over privates and corporals....

No general would dare invade Switzerland, his lifespan would be about 45 minutes....

I am sure they wanted it, plenty of gold, good high terrain

you still do not get the porcupine defense and its benefits......

you also do not understand where the U.S. border stops....

most Govt school geography classes cover the borders, did your's leave it out?

[Reformed Idealist]

Regarding Iraq, How do I put this politely.... "We lost" we had lost about 12-15 months ago... now it is just trying to hold it together until we get a new administration in office...

The Iraqi Guerillas are destroying our military, using IED's, Snipers, etc

I remember reading that a single Iraqi sniper tied up a whole marine platoon (30-40 troops) for a day and a half, killed 3-4 and wounded a dozen...

in the end, they called in airstrikes for the sniper, they never found his body...

He is probably still shooting up troops...

This occurs daily in Iraq, IED's kill and maim thousands.... no one is caught or captured...

You have a poor grasp of history and real world events.... (not trying to insult you, just being honest)

Switzerland did not buy its neutrality (Pay its way out of WW1 & WW2)
I used ot think they had great diplomats, like the ultimate used car salesman....

What they had was the militia defense, all males between 18-52 were in the military, and all males were expert at sniper shooting...
They also learned all the rank insignia of the opposing nations, and were taught to shoot colonels and generals over privates and corporals....

No general would dare invade Switzerland, his lifespan would be about 45 minutes....

I am sure they wanted it, plenty of gold, good high terrain

you still do not get the porcupine defense and its benefits......

you also do not understand where the U.S. border stops....

most Govt school geography classes cover the borders, did your's leave it out?

Yes, just keep repeating the refrain about borders. It is like your own personal porcupine defense against me. Just annoy me until I give up. Brilliant!

Do yourself a favor and turn off CNN or whatever else you use to get your twisted view of events. We lost in Iraq? You mean because 2,000 soldiers have been killed - about 900 per year? At that rate we'll be all gone in about 200 years! What do you suppose the rate of attrition is for the other side. I bet they lost more in 5 days in Fallujah than we lost in the entire war so far. But they are "destroying" our military, huh? Don't you love how they still call mines I.E.D.'s to make them sound more scary?

I don't defend every aspect of the Iraqi adventure, but at least I don't just walk around whining about porcupines.

As for Switzerland. Are they the only country with snipers? I think every country's army has snipers and they are all taught to look for rank.

[Halophyte]

Looks like Sarge has met his match in logic ............ again.


.

[Large Sarge]

Yes, just keep repeating the refrain about borders. It is like your own personal porcupine defense against me. Just annoy me until I give up. Brilliant!

Do yourself a favor and turn off CNN or whatever else you use to get your twisted view of events. We lost in Iraq? You mean because 2,000 soldiers have been killed - about 900 per year? At that rate we'll be all gone in about 200 years! What do you suppose the rate of attrition is for the other side. I bet they lost more in 5 days in Fallujah than we lost in the entire war so far. But they are "destroying" our military, huh? Don't you love how they still call mines I.E.D.'s to make them sound more scary?

I don't defend every aspect of the Iraqi adventure, but at least I don't just walk around whining about porcupines.

As for Switzerland. Are they the only country with snipers? I think every country's army has snipers and they are all taught to look for rank.

2200+ is the reported casualties....
of course the first casualty of war is the truth...
16,000 wounded seriously....

I strongly suspect those wounded numbers are light... and a lot of the dead are not reported as dead unless they die in country...

Primarily Winning a war comes down to economics....

"Cost per kill" to put it into a simple formula...

Now to use my earlier example of the sniper, he killed 3-4 and wounded a dozen, cost was a day and a half of his time + about 20 bullets ( or about $1.00)

now on the U.S. side we look at that event

we have at least 3 casualties, so that is lif einsurance premium payout $250K a pop I believe
and we have 12 wounded Cost per troops say, minimal rehab, $10,000 (very conservative number)
and then we have the air strike which actually got the sniper to leave Cost? Bombs? Fuel? etc perhaps $10,000+

So we have a total expense of $750K + $120K + $10K = $880 thousand dollars to possibly kill 1 sniper...

Insurgent cost $1.00

Do the math

By the way, this scenario gets even worse when I start figuring in the cost of armored vehicles and the use IED's

Economics

I am sure other countries have snipers, but they do not have a militia....

Every male...18-52 in the U.S. I guesstimate that this would be a militia of 120 million men

Now how big is the invading force to defeat 120 million guerillas?

[Reformed Idealist]

2200+ is the reported casualties....
of course the first casualty of war is the truth...
16,000 wounded seriously....

I strongly suspect those wounded numbers are light... and a lot of the dead are not reported as dead unless they die in country...

Primarily Winning a war comes down to economics....

"Cost per kill" to put it into a simple formula...

Now to use my earlier example of the sniper, he killed 3-4 and wounded a dozen, cost was a day and a half of his time + about 20 bullets ( or about $1.00)

now on the U.S. side we look at that event

we have at least 3 casualties, so that is lif einsurance premium payout $250K a pop I believe
and we have 12 wounded Cost per troops say, minimal rehab, $10,000 (very conservative number)
and then we have the air strike which actually got the sniper to leave Cost? Bombs? Fuel? etc perhaps $10,000+

So we have a total expense of $750K + $120K + $10K = $880 thousand dollars to possibly kill 1 sniper...

Insurgent cost $1.00

Do the math

By the way, this scenario gets even worse when I start figuring in the cost of armored vehicles and the use IED's

Economics

I am sure other countries have snipers, but they do not have a militia....

Every male...18-52 in the U.S. I guesstimate that this would be a militia of 120 million men

Now how big is the invading force to defeat 120 million guerillas?

Yes, look at extreme examples, that'll clear things up.

Back to your porcupine guerilla army. You want the U.S. to allow an invasion, give up sovereignity of our large cities and institutions, let it be stripped of treasure and resources just so some militias can sniper attack a colonel with a 25 cent bullet. May look good in the cost per kill numbers you keep track of, but in every other way it is silly. Yes, the U.S. may "win" that type of war, and do it very cheaply, but I think the cost to our way of life would be staggering. (Though they make good movies a la "Red Dawn")

You are the one that doesn't have a good grasp of world events, my friend. Not being hostile. Just stating the facts.

[Large Sarge]

Yes, look at extreme examples, that'll clear things up.

Back to your porcupine guerilla army. You want the U.S. to allow an invasion, give up sovereignity of our large cities and institutions, let it be stripped of treasure and resources just so some militias can sniper attack a colonel with a 25 cent bullet. May look good in the cost per kill numbers you keep track of, but in every other way it is silly. Yes, the U.S. may "win" that type of war, and do it very cheaply, but I think the cost to our way of life would be staggering. (Though they make good movies a la "Red Dawn")

You are the one that doesn't have a good grasp of world events, my friend. Not being hostile. Just stating the facts.

Actually my example was very common, figure an IED which cost 50 to hundred bucks versus a M1 tank or a Bradley many millions of dollars...
I gave you "light lunch" for an example...

This is happening thousands of times a week all over Iraq...

Who said I want the U.S. to allow an invasion?

Have you tried to pet that porcupine yet?
Does the porcupine allow his leg to be invaded?

These are very simple concepts, perhaps my writing skills are not that good,

The defense is like a porcupine, meaning it is very dangerous and painful to invade...

Normally people invade across the border, so the defense would start there...

Cities on the border would likely need more protection...

I am sorry you were unaware we had lost Iraq, I hate to be the bearer of bad news....

[Reformed Idealist]

Actually my example was very common, figure an IED which cost 50 to hundred bucks versus a M1 tank or a Bradley many millions of dollars...
I gave you "light lunch" for an example...

This is happening thousands of times a week all over Iraq...

Who said I want the U.S. to allow an invasion?

Have you tried to pet that porcupine yet?
Does the porcupine allow his leg to be invaded?

These are very simple concepts, perhaps my writing skills are not that good,

The defense is like a porcupine, meaning it is very dangerous and painful to invade...

Normally people invade across the border, so the defense would start there...

Cities on the border would likely need more protection...

I am sorry you were unaware we had lost Iraq, I hate to be the bearer of bad news....

Let's stop this nonsense. You aren't convincing me of anything. I think your porcupine defense for the U.S. is stupid, to put it kindly. You talk of defending ports and arming citizens, while anyone else would stop an attack before it get within 1000 miles.

Anyone feel free to ague with yourself, or with anyone else, or with me later in a few days, I have to go... Thanks.

[Reformed Idealist]

One last point. Switzerland choses the porcupine defense not because they think it is best, but because it is their only option. We have natural defenses already built in - the Atlantic and Pacific.

Also, how does your porcupine defense work against nuclear weapons? Geesh.