What brought the towers down???

[wrs]

Runcible said:

I also notice that he states the energy needed to deflect each column, but doesn't give a source for the figures. I strongly suspect that he's using figures that are applying to steel at normal atmospheric temperatures, and not steel that has been warmed up by a few hundred degrees. There's a few warning bells going off here.


I made the computations on my own using Eulers relation and the known Youngs Modulus of the steel as well as the moment of Inertia that I calculated for the known columns. After the initial collapse, the rest of the columns under consideration were not at some elevated temperature so my computations are perfectly satisfactory on that basis.

Runcible also said:

This one is just plain odd. For example, the quote "the floors were designed to hold 8 times their own weight without collapse for one week, they were tested to that standard in the field." If the top 20 floors collapsed on the floor below them, that would be 20 times the weight of the floor. 20 is greater than 8, last time I checked. But I am a product of gov't run schools, and my belief that 20 is a larger number than 8 could be the result of gov't brainwashing.

Actually it's not odd, there is a lot of discussion as to what the collapse mechanism was. There are two things collapsing, the floors and the columns and there is a lot of discussion about how the floors caused the colums to collapse. The top 20 floors didn't collapse onto the first floor below them. If the floors collapsed independently, they had to fall free of the columns to pile up on one floor. What I pointed out is that the floors were tested and able to carry the weight of 8 additional floors so it would take 8 floors breaking free of their column connections and piling up on the first undamaged floor below them in order to exceed the design load for a single floor..........

I think it makes much more sense to consider the top 20 floors as a unit collapsing onto the 90 floors below them which are a unit. Then you can begin talking rationally about the collapse. The unzippering nonsense is just hogwash speculation that has never been substantiated. There are real physical processes that take time and energy in order to be manifested in the conjectured progressive collapse. If we can show that neither the time nor the energy required of the conjecture are consistent with the actual measured behavior of the observed collapse then the conjecture is disproven. That is exactly what I have attempted to do with the analysis of the bending energy for the columns.

I would also note that Penny Lane attached an analysis of the energy transfer through the colums from the intial collapse and the ways in which the kinetic energy would be dissipated. It hasn't yet been refuted on this thread, I wonder why.

[goldbug]

You haven't "debunked" crap, you inserted another theory or 'missing', 'extra' CT info. - standard CT shill seller tactics.

Address the web sites facts and get back with me later.

Better yet, put your money where you mouth is ...


.

Halophyte,

When people ask you a question, I suggest answering it, rather than instructing questioners to a web site, or critizing them for asking.

If you answer the questions, it would help others to understand your views. Just a suggestion.

:beer:

[RickyJ]

Halophyte,

When people ask you a question, I suggest answering it, rather than instructing questioners to a web site, or critizing them for asking.

If you answer the questions, it would help others to understand your views. Just a suggestion.

:beer:

I have seen his type on many different forums, they are all bascially preaching the same line like they are reading from the same script, which more than likely they are. He is not here to debate, he is here to distract and disrupt any and all converstatoins about the truth of 9/11. I can assure you that this is the case with him, he fits the mold perfectly.

[Penny Lane]

wrs, I was most impressed by your discussion with moneymatters, MBAstudent et al on that one long monster thread about how money is created etc. In fact, I found that I looked forward to your posts most of all because you seemed to have the clearest thinking on the matters. Unfortunately you have (and still do) your PMs turned off, so I was unable to discuss that at the time with you.

It's certainly reassuring to me that you have come to a similar conclusion on this matter as well.

[runcible]

I made the computations on my own using Eulers relation and the known Youngs Modulus of the steel as well as the moment of Inertia that I calculated for the known columns.

I'm not trying to attack your calcualtions, but how are you using Euler's relation? I'm trying to rack my brains for that formula, and I seem to be recalling electrical engineering problems.

What I pointed out is that the floors were tested and able to carry the weight of 8 additional floors so it would take 8 floors breaking free of their column connections and piling up on the first undamaged floor below them in order to exceed the design load for a single floor.

What weight could the floors take at higher temperatures? Have you considered a bowing of the exterior walls?

Oh, and happy 4th of July! :birthday:

[Halophyte]

The top 20 floors didn't collapse onto the first floor below them.

I think it makes much more sense to consider the top 20 floors as a unit collapsing onto the 90 floors below them which are a unit. Then you can begin talking rationally about the collapse.

Jeeez, make up your mind ....

Okay, twenty floors still exceeds 8 times live load.

Get rational.


BTW, your computations were extrapolated from the FEMA report that was extrapolated from incomplete building design data.

You pointed that out, quite some time ago.


.

[Halophyte]

Halophyte,

When people ask you a question, I suggest answering it, rather than instructing questioners to a web site, or critizing them for asking.

If you answer the questions, it would help others to understand your views. Just a suggestion.

:beer:


The answers to your questions are at the web site I was gracious enough to supply you. Just as the opposition is quick to supply web sites with never ending overlays of video inuendo.

Or, should I copy and past it word for word so you don't have to provide the effort to point and click your own mouse button ?

Do you wish me to read to you as well ?

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[J.D.Rockinfeller]

Its been a LONG LONG time now halo.....im still waiting for one single shred of PROOF that a plane ever hit the first tower...until such time as you do, all your arguments about jet fuel burning concrete & melting steel,ring hollow....give us proof! not hyperbole!...im going on evidence here...4 buildings.....one plane..and...its ...still jet fuel huh?:rofl:

[Halophyte]

Its been a LONG LONG time now halo.....im still waiting for one single shred of PROOF that a plane ever hit the first tower...until such time as you do, all your arguments about jet fuel burning concrete & melting steel,ring hollow....give us proof! not hyperbole!...im going on evidence here...4 buildings.....one plane..and...its ...still jet fuel huh?:rofl:

Get a life ...



.

[J.D.Rockinfeller]

Get a life ...



.

No...get proof!..is that your answer?...i thought so..not a single fact...well put your slide rule away until you can support your position on known fact.

[Halophyte]

No...get proof!..is that your answer?...i thought so..not a single fact...well put your slide rule away until you can support your position on known fact.

"PROOF that a plane ever hit the first tower"

You got to be fvcking kidding me ?

Get your tinfoil hat out and play me a tune.



.

[wrs]

I'm not trying to attack your calcualtions, but how are you using Euler's relation? I'm trying to rack my brains for that formula, and I seem to be recalling electrical engineering problems.



Euler did a lot of stuff but this formula is about buckling. I beleive it's in the version of my paper that you read but here is the pertinent part here:

The amount of force required to cause a column to buckle is given by an equation called Eulers Formula and is given as

F = EI*pi**2/L**2

In this case E is the Youngs Modulus of the material, I is the moment of inertia for the beam type and L is the length of the beam. We are assuming what is called a simply pinned column in this case, which is what the colums on the interior floors of the building are.

You also ask

What weight could the floors take at higher temperatures? Have you considered a bowing of the exterior walls?

What I did was allow for the initial collapse to have occurred. I then considered that the collapsing floors were a unit and the lower floors were another intact unit. I analyzed that from an energy standpoint to see if the subsequent collapse was possible from an energy standpoint. The buckling energies that I was able to compute were about 2.9GJ per floor and that for a one meter buckle in a 13 meter column. That is more energy than could be provided for by the inital collapse based on the FEMA numbers.

I think there is another interesting paper out there by Dr. Greening that assumes a much lower buckling energy per floor and hence his calculations show that the collapse time would have been what we saw. However, his calculations show that if the buckling energy were what I computed, the collapse times would have been much, much longer than what we saw. So the key here is the amount of energy consumed to buckle and collapse a given floor or actually, three floor section of the buildings. That was not addressed by FEMA or the NIST and it hasn't been addressed by the other papers that Halo has posted which purport to analzye the progressive collapse.

[Halophyte]

Pinned columns, pinned AND hinged trusses .... plastic surfaced hinges to boot ... on all outer truss/column connections ...

Let's keep ALL the facts straight.



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[J.D.Rockinfeller]

Pinned columns, pinned AND hinged trusses .... plastic surfaced hinges to boot ... on all outer truss/column connections ...

.

hinged trusses? tinfoil hats?...where are the other 3 airplains??where is the delivery vehicle for all this fuel??:?

[goldbug]

Pinned columns, pinned AND hinged trusses .... plastic surfaced hinges to boot ... on all outer truss/column connections ...

Let's keep ALL the facts straight.



.

How did the Pentagon get hit over one (was it 2?) hour later?

Why was the investigation about the short selling of United and American ordered off?

:afraid:

[Halophyte]

hinged trusses? tinfoil hats?...where are the other 3 airplains??where is the delivery vehicle for all this fuel??:?

......................................

[J.D.Rockinfeller]

Ill repeat this slower for you.....in order to assert the presence of that much jet fuel, there must be a delivery vehicle...so far your "proof" ads up to ad hominem attacks...testy there are we?..just show us...were calling for proof to begin attaching credibility to your assetions...and you refuse to respond on point!
Either a: you have proof & refuse to show us...

or
B: you dont have a single shred....which forces you to attack the person and attempt to divert attention away from the question.

Please i havent said a single personal comment! please give us the pictues etc....so we can begin to apply credibility to your assertions.

[goldbug]

http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/12/1/Tojo31-85.html

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/germanyandengland/1.shtml

Any poster's posting that Pearl Harbor was not a direct contrived act of treason against the U.S. are beer bellied TV headed un-read fools or self deluded lieing trolls.

Japan had been a loyal allie in the Boxer rebellion and they helped us in the bankster caused/induced insane fracticidal for no reason called war WW 1, but we used Japan and set them up to get bogged down in China, FDR had the Flying Tiger's in China over a year before the Dec. 7, 1941 cabal/treason Polls done in Oct. 1941 showed that 90% of of the U.S. White population at that time were against U.S. going to any War against Germany/Europe on the side of Stalin/USSR. and that being after two plus years having England declaring War on Germany and chased out at Dunkirk.

FDR and his boyz had sneaked the Carrier's out of Pearl Harbor on a Friday Night at 11:30 PM on a yellow alert. The U.S. FDR regime knew that the Japanese spy's had let Japan know the air craft Carrier's were in Pearl habor as that was the real bait, as our best newest ships, tenders and many subs had already been sent out to the N.W. and South to Palmara Island area etc.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

FDR gave the military a six month retro-active pay raise on Dec. 1941 the men were partying for sure on Friday and Saturday night before the day of treason.

There is a real hostility now between Japan and China today because of that war. The whole mess in China, Japan, Korean War, Viet Nam War was NOT with out the informed WILL or desire of our people, our congress was against it, and FDR in the election promised no war in Europe, what a blatant liar.

Just as the Rosenburg's stabbed us in the back with their actual spying and giving our secrets to their bretherin in the USSR to be used against U.S. It was also the fact the treason of FDR of helping as he called him, uncle Joe Stalin, that lead directly 100% to the bloody Korean war, which I if you follow the M.O. of the FDR cabal was actually started by their bretheren in USSR with China, countrie's created created by them. This was to make sure that Douglas MacArthur was kept OUT of the White House in 1952 they were very afraid of any chance of that happening as it would undo all their treason since Wilson and 1913. They KNEW the was going to resign some time in 1950 so he could prepare for the election in 1952 and the Genearl would have gone after the installed non elected filth completely out of our central regime, that FDR had fully nfested U.S. with these fifth colunmist lunatic hater's.

The treason Nation destroyer parasite's knew the Genearal was at time administratinng Japan so these fiflth columnis lunatic hater's got us in that very hot war in Korea with help from their bretheren in China and the USSR, which killed 54,000 White men in the deal in just two years! Plus over 100,000 wounded knowing that the Geneal would be bogged down commanding U.S. force's. If not for the General's leadership and the sucessful Inchon landing, Korea could have been much, much worse. WW 2, Korea, and the murder of JFK spelled total victory for our fith columnist's.
__________________

Things are never as they appear. Learn to read between the lines!

:rock:

[goldbug]

SuddenImpact,

I did not realize you edited your post. I must still be missing something. In any event, whatever your point is I respect your edited view(s).

I apologize for not quoting you properly. Please take this opportunity to set the record straight, and expand on your ideas.

:beer:

[goldbug]

SuddenImpact,

I did not realize you edited your post. I must still be missing something. In any event, whatever your point is I respect your edited view(s).

I apologize for not quoting you properly. Please take this opportunity to set the record straight, and expand on your ideas.

:beer:

SuddenImpact,

Apparently, I can't apologize quick enough. The post I responded to is now deleted. Sorry if it was my fault, although I do recommend you set the record straight and verbalize your thoughts.

[runcible]

Euler did a lot of stuff but this formula is about buckling. I beleive it's in the version of my paper that you read but here is the pertinent part here

Oh, okay.

What I did was allow for the initial collapse to have occurred. I then considered that the collapsing floors were a unit and the lower floors were another intact unit.

I always assumed that once the collapse started, it was very unlikely for the vertical supports from the top section to be aligned with the vertical supports for the lower section.

At which scenerio, I'd imagine that the supports would punch through the floors.

But that's my assumption.

I'm not doing math today, it is the 4th. :birthday:

[Halophyte]

Oh, okay.

I always assumed that once the collapse started, it was very unlikely for the vertical supports from the top section to be aligned with the vertical supports for the lower section.

At which scenerio, I'd imagine that the supports would punch through the floors.

But that's my assumption.

I'm not doing math today, it is the 4th. :birthday:

That doesn't take into account the fact that, the moving mass of debris expands as it falls, putting higher horizontal forces on the vertical columns for each floor it travels.

That's horizontal loads on vertical support columns.

This is why it looked like (as one reporter stated) a banana being pealed back.


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[Large Sarge]

bump for Drafter

you will find a lot of calculations here.

[drafter]

bump for Drafter

you will find a lot of calculations here.

Thanks, I'll take a look.

[wrs]

Especially crap like this

That doesn't take into account the fact that, the moving mass of debris expands as it falls, putting higher horizontal forces on the vertical columns for each floor it travels.

This is complete and unsubstantiated utter bullshit. The structure isn't flying apart as it falls unless something blows it apart. It's called Newtons first law. The upper structure that fell on the lower structure was actually weaker and less structurally sound than the lower structure because it has the fire damage as well as the impact damage. When it impacts the lower structure it breaks up itself as much as it breaks the lower structure. Therefore the building couldn't fall on itself, it's a ludicrous and unsupportable hypothesis that has been disproven countless times.

Idiots like halo keep trying to say otherwise but they always rely on made up bullshit like the quote I just captured here............

[Didga]

I cannot remember if I posted on this thread, but if I did I might have been playing devils advocate. :aetsch:

[drafter]

Anyone ever play that game "Jenga" were you have the stacked blocks making a tower and you try to remove pieces without the whole tower crashing down? Well when you pull the wrong piece out of the middle and the top comes crashing down, what happens to all the pieces? How do they behave? Do they end up in a nice little pile? Can you mathematically predict with 100% certainty where each piece will end up? Now I know that is an extremely simplistic view, but In my "opinion" there are random elements that show up and effect the outcome regardless of the math sometimes. Things that aren't "supposed" to, do fail. The Titanic "did" sink.

[Large Sarge]

Especially crap like this



This is complete and unsubstantiated utter bullshit. The structure isn't flying apart as it falls unless something blows it apart. It's called Newtons first law. The upper structure that fell on the lower structure was actually weaker and less structurally sound than the lower structure because it has the fire damage as well as the impact damage. When it impacts the lower structure it breaks up itself as much as it breaks the lower structure. Therefore the building couldn't fall on itself, it's a ludicrous and unsupportable hypothesis that has been disproven countless times.

Idiots like halo keep trying to say otherwise but they always rely on made up bullshit like the quote I just captured here............


@ Drafter,

I think WRS a real professional engineer, does a pretty good job with this.

basically the building gets stronger as you move towards the base

combine this fundamental law, with all the molten metal, near free fall speeds, the 47 super steel beams(core) that disappeared, etc

You can play Jenga all day & night if you like, but what about the molten metal and those 47 super steel beams, the core.

[drafter]

I'll admit I just dont know. Too many missing pieces. Without firsthand info, it'll always be a "leap of faith". On the most basic level I just can't fathom the logistics required to pull off such a feat. The literal miles of detonation cord, etc. required just boggles the mind. To many things that would have left a papertrail or a loose end that would have come out by now. I just think the thinking is too narrowly focused on "how they fell" without looking at the big picture. 3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead. It took way more than 3 people to pull off what you are putting your faith in. I think you'd have an easier time proving martians exist. I'm just going to have to sit it out for now unless something new comes along.

[Large Sarge]

I'll admit I just dont know. Too many missing pieces. Without firsthand info, it'll always be a "leap of faith". On the most basic level I just can't fathom the logistics required to pull off such a feat. The literal miles of detonation cord, etc. required just boggles the mind. To many things that would have left a papertrail or a loose end that would have come out by now. I just think the thinking is too narrowly focused on "how they fell" without looking at the big picture. 3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead. It took way more than 3 people to pull off what you are putting your faith in. I think you'd have an easier time proving martians exist. I'm just going to have to sit it out for now unless something new comes along.


Manhattan project was kept secret for a long long time...

plus, what if this attack was based out of Israel, not the U.S.?