What brought the towers down???

[Reformed Idealist]

Here is a start on the hijackers, although I do not vouch for any one of the sources you will find here. Some appear to be less credible than others:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=911+hijackers+alive


Hmmm, thanks for the link. I find it interesting that all of these articles were written prior to 9/23/01 when there were no photographs of the hijackers available and there was a considerable amount of confusion about the names due to so many people in the middle east with the same names.

How about now? Anyone have any reports of any of these 19 hijackers still alive with a picture? Didn't think so.

Seen any recent interviews with any of these 19 men? Didn't think so.

So, you call "fact" what I call b.s.

[gpond]

Just to look at the other side a little, tell me this.

Where is the government's proof that any of these 19 fellows were on the flights? I haven't seen that proved either. Do you have a link to the government's proof that they were on the planes?

How do we know any of them were on any of the planes? I am not aware of any proof of that, but I would be interested in looking at it.

As far as I can tell, the govt. merely asserted that they were.

[gpond]

Seen any recent interviews with any of these 19 men? Didn't think so.
Daniel Hopsicker, an author and investigative journalist, actually found Mahamad Atta's live-in girlfriend while he was attending flight school down there in Florida.

Big news, huh? Larry King itching to get her on and look into her eyes and ask: "So, what was Atta like?"

See any interviews of her? Didn't think so.

(But why not?)

[Reformed Idealist]

Just to look at the other side a little, tell me this.

Where is the government's proof that any of these 19 fellows were on the flights? I haven't seen that proved either. Do you have a link to the government's proof that they were on the plane?

How do we know any of them were on any of the planes? I am not aware of any proof of that, but I would be interested in looking at it.

If there were no Arab hijackers, then where do all those phone calls to relatives, some with anwering maching messages preserved to this day, and some to American Airlines ticketing agent which were recorded, which describe ARAB HIJACKERS come from?

Flight 93? No Arab hijackers? Have you listened to the recordings?

Airport security camera depicting Atta boarding a plane to Boston. Fake?

To me, explaining that away is 1,000,000 harder to explain away then why a planes passenger list might be wrong or contain aliases, or any number of other reasons there is this discrepency. Remember, before 9-11 there wasn't nearly as much emphasis on these passenger lists being accurate as there is now.

Plus, if the government studied the 1993 WTC attack for 8 years, surely they figured out how to blow it up correctly. Why bother with planes at all? (yes, I know the drill. To provide a distraction). But why not just put these 19 men in vans in the parking garage. You mean to tell me that TPTB created a plot way more complex than necessary just to show off their technical brilliance much like a David Copperfield?

To me, this evidence about the 5, 11, or all 19 alive hijackers is as flimsy as it gets.

[gpond]

Do you have a link to Flight 93 recordings? Sincerely, I would like to hear it. I may have forgotten about it...

I will look for video of Atta boarding the plane in Boston. I do remember seeing some video of him at an airport, but I do not remember if it was that actual morning.

I do think you are onto something with that David Copperfield comment. You put your finger right on it. heh heh.

[gpond]

OK. Here is flight 93 recording that I found:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/flight93-air-traffic.htm

[Reformed Idealist]

OK. Here is flight 93 recording that I found:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/flight93-air-traffic.htm

OK, I am totally lost here. How exactly are you explaining away articles like this.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3067652

As opposed to those "interviews" with the hijackers, the recipients of these phone calls, such as Liz Glick, wife of Jeremy Glick, and many others that described in person or on their answering machine what was going on, are still alive, and have been interviewed numerous times on national television.

But, still, no proof that Arabs were on board. Cognitive Disonance is what this is called.

[gpond]

Here are a couple of links regarding Atta boarding planes on 9/11.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hijackers_video.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,601556,00.html

[gpond]

OK, I am totally lost here. How exactly are you explaining away articles like this.
I am not explaining away anything. I am mostly asking questions. I asked where is the govt. proof that the men in question were on board. The govt. asserts that all 19 specific individuals were on those planes, but we have not seen the govt's evidence of that. It may be true. But they will not show us the evidence.

The flight 93 Air Traffic Controller tape was not released by the govt. but by an independant party. Maybe the security video of Atta was released by the govt. and it does provide some evidence that he may have boarded that plane (to Boston). I would just like to see the govt. evidence that those 19 individuals were on those planes. If they have the evidence of all 19 of those individuals being on those planes they have not released it.

It would not surprise me if they were on the planes, but the govt refuses to prove it.

BTW, I never asserted that they were alive... I just gave you a link where you could investigate whatever evidence there is.

I would like an investigation. A real one this time.

Would you be against that? Why?

[Halophyte]

@ Halo,

skepticism is warranted in every situation (especially science), but you seem to have "Selective skepticism", like how the all 3 building fall in their own footprints, or how these pilots who could not manage a little cessna for 1/2 hour piloted 757's for hundreds of miles....



Cause the airliners were taken over by autopilot controls installed by CIA/FBI/NAS/BATF zionist spooks while the aircraft mech workers were on coffee break ....... and the co-pilots says to the pilot .... "Hey captain, we're out of control, the controls are not responding, we need to call air traffic control !"

While twiddling his thumbs, the captain says, "What's our vector, Victor?"

Co-pilot says, "We're turning towards New York, we NEED to call air traffic control NOW DAMN IT !"

And the captains says, "Chill out mon, we got at least twenty minutes to phone home ..... "

And the co-pilot says, "Jesus man, were going to fly into the WTC towers, we really, really, really need to call air traffic control .... !!!!"

And the captain says, "Air traffic control ? We don't need no stinking air traffic controllers ....."


.

[Reformed Idealist]

BTW, I never asserted that they were alive... I just gave you a link where you could investigate whatever evidence there is.

I would like an investigation. A real one this time.

Would you be against that? Why?

Never asserted they were alive? Just posting links that claim that they are. Spoken like a true politician.

Would I be against a real investigation? Of course not, go ahead. The problem is that just like any conspiracy theory, there will never be enough evidence to prove it to those who refuse to see it. NASA doesn't publish a book debunking the moon landing conspiracy because it wouldn't do any good. But in the spirit, yes, I would like an investigation - just haven't been too impressed with their ability to investigate anything, so why would this be any different?


Just to keep going. Do you think the past 25 years of Islamic terrorism is also part of the plot of 9-11? The American Embassy in Iran all the way to Beirut, the first WTC bombing, the USS Cole, and on and on and continuing with Madrid and London and Bali -- this is all just manufactured to provide a basis for a motive? Islam just has nothing to do with all of this. Hmmm.

[Ponce Cuba]

I will try once again to find the article or articles with the live "terrorists".

About the "terrorists" boarding the plane? those were from (if I remember right) from three weeks before...... at least that's what I read.

[Reformed Idealist]

I will try once again to find the article or articles with the live "terrorists".

About the "terrorists" boarding the plane? those were from (if I remember right) from three weeks before...... at least that's what I read.

Well, good luck finding those articles. As for the pictures boarding the plane - they were from the morning of 9-11 about 6:30 am. But you keep believing.

[naccarato]

To bad the gov. couldn't find out who shorted the airline stocks before the fact. That might have helped track down who else was behind 911. Oh well.

[gpond]

Never asserted they were alive? Just posting links that claim that they are. Spoken like a true politician.
HEY!! Let's try to keep this civil, eh? :wink: Calling me a politician is close to the line in my book. :eek:

What I was doing was showing you that there is "evidence" out there that they may still be alive. Looking at evidence, that is what I was doing. It is not proof. It is evidence. It may be false, I do not know.

Here's how I think some of this works, Reformed. Once we humans form an opinion it is hard to sway us from it. Also, we are all brainwashed to accept information from an authority. But I like to ask the question, "Why do I believe what I believe?" It is a way of correcting mistakes I may be making in my thinking, sort of a failsafe.

For example, if the govt. comes out with pictures of 19 Arab looking guys and issues an important press release that says: These are the guys, look we even have pictures. Well, my conditioned response is to think, YES, these are the 19 basturds that did it, look they even have pictures!! Aha!!

Later, if a normal person comes out and says, look I was there and I tell ya there were explosions going off all over the place -- well, then I have a dilemma. So my brain automatically starts to discredit that witness. I think to myself, well they are probably lying, or somebody paid them, or maybe they just want to get on TV.

I automatically assign a greater credibility to the earlier information - the information that I received from an "authority."

In other words, I discount the new information. We all do it.

So far in this thread we looked at evidence suggesting that the 19 hijackers were on the planes, but what was that actual evidence? I see that we have an audiotape of Flight Controllers that contains what sounds like an arabic-type accent saying "we have a bomb".

Then I see we have a still from a video showing a man who looks a lot like Atta getting ready to board a flight TO Boston. BTW, flight 11 that Atta was supposed to pilot left FROM Boston, so this video is not Atta getting on that plane, but presumably catching a connecting flight TO Boston.

That's all the evidence I have seen so far to back up the Govt's assertions that those 19 men were on those 4 flights.

When you really drill down and look into it, that is pretty "flimsy" evidence, is it not? Assuming one applies the same criteria that you applied to the "evidence" that many of the presumed hijackers are still alive, no? Pretty flimsy, so far.

It is simply that we ascribe more credibility to stories given to us 1) Early On, and 2) By an authority of some type.

They gave us a story, with pictures even.

Humans are excellent at rejecting evidence that disagrees with their preconceived ideas while accepting the slightest evidence that agrees with their status quo position.

We all do it. It is a rare person that even bothers to look at the evidence presented that is contraire to one's prior opinion.

That is just my humble opinion.

[gpond]

Just to keep going. Do you think the past 25 years of Islamic terrorism is also part of the plot of 9-11? The American Embassy in Iran all the way to Beirut, the first WTC bombing, the USS Cole, and on and on and continuing with Madrid and London and Bali -- this is all just manufactured to provide a basis for a motive? Islam just has nothing to do with all of this. Hmmm.The Iranian hostages were released almost the exact moment that Ronald Reagan took office. Does that not suggest anything to you?

Iranian "extremists" love RR? Does that make sense to you? They hate Jimmy Carter, but they love Ronald Reagan? Could there be things going on here that we do not fully comprehend? Possibly?

Islam has everything to do with all of this, but do you think that Anglo-American intelligence agencies were sitting on their hands all these years?

[PatColo]

I would advise not wasting time trying to convince those who seem to have all day to promote the utterly unproven and largely disprovable, wild eyed Official 911 CT, on messageboards... if you get my drift. "Cognitive Dissonance" and "Occam's Razor" are cute "baffle 'em with bullshit" smoke bombs.. But when someone's evidently got all day to defend the OCT of 911, you should know better than to waste any time with them. They're either hopeless true believers or they're paid (by taxpayers...) for what they do-- either case they're not worth your time... the minds of the principals will not be "changed", after all. Ask them to explain the strange collapse of the House Of Spooks (WTC7) (http://wtc7.net), or to put their vast knowledge to work collecting their MILLION BUCKS (http://reopen911.org/Contest.htm), and they always go deafeningly silent.

Since both parties are effectively just competing for the sympathy of the undecided lurkers they imagine to be monitoring-- whether you're dealing with 911-OCT true believers or with paid shills, just drop some links to some of the better 911-Truth links and vids, like:

=====
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net

Dan Rather remarks on the strange collapse of WTC-7 (MPEG 35 seconds, 1.3 MB):
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/wtc_7_cbs.mpg

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net

Bush lying about 911 morning, "...the TV was obviously on" (RealPlayer, 1 minute, 880 KB):
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/bushsawfirstplane1.ram

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net

Bush fumbles a softball press question about 911 foreknowledge (MPEG, 43 seconds, 7.2 MB):
http://images.indymedia.org/imc/washingtondc/media/video/6/9_11laugh.mpg

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net

Firemen recall "detonations" in South Tower (MPEG, 29 seconds, 4.8 MB):
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/discussion_in_firehouse.mpg

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net

David Ray Griffin's 4/05 speech at UW-Madison entitled "9/11 and the American Empire: How Should Religious People Respond?" Broadcast 3 times on C-SPAN2 Book TV. 82 Mins:
http://www.911blogger.com/2005/04/proper-release-of-griffin-in-madison.html

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net

David Ray Griffin's "New Pearl Harbor", full text online:
http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/141355.php

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net

Loose Change 2nd Edition (82 mins- recommend downloading rather than watching the video stream, which tends to stall and not restart)
http://tinyurl.com/83bd8

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net

David Ray Griffin's talk on his book "911 Commission: Ommissions and Distortions" (QuickTime movie, 1 hour, 47.5 MB):
http://www.archive.org/download/drgriffin/drgriffinon911commission.mov

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net

Michael Ruppert's 8/31/04 speech to San Francisco Commonwealth Club re "Crossing The Rubicon", his book on 911-Truth, oil, and US Empire (MP3s, 29 mins, 10 MBs each):
Part 1:
http://media.globalpublicmedia.com/RM/2004/08/Ruppert.Commonwealth.20040831-1.mp3
Part 2:
http://media.globalpublicmedia.com/RM/2004/08/Ruppert.Commonwealth.20040831-2.mp3
Transcript:
http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/transcripts/159

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net

Michael Ruppert radio interview 2/14/05 re 911, Oil, and the financial markets (MP3, 49 mins, 22.2 MBs):
http://media.globalpublicmedia.com/RM/2005/02/KZYX.MichaelRuppert.ElsCooperrider.2005-02-14.mp3

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net

Webster G. Tarpley 3/27/05 radio interview re his book: "Synthetic Terror: Made in USA" (MP3, 29 mins, 13.3 MBs):
http://www.suesupriano.com/audio/webstertarpley.mp3

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net

Animated image (.gif) of WTC-7 collapse. Good for posting to messageboards where posting images is possible:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net

Fake terror staged by governments is nothing new. See the US Government's since declassified "Operation Northwoods" scheme (PDF, 780 KB):
http://www.prisonplanet.com/northwoods.pdf

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net

Bilderberg Group, a key element of the "shadow government" which rules much of the Western World, discussed by BBC Radio (MP3, 28 mins, 4.8 MB):
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/bbc_radio_4_bilderberg.mp3

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif
www.WTC7.net


edit to fix Griffin link...

[hoarder]

I automatically assign a greater credibility to the earlier information - the information that I recieved from an "authority."Well said.
We assign greater credibility to the earlier information because doing so keeps us from having to admit we were deceived. And THAT is why we dig our heels in instead of considering new information!

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)

As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand.
Josh Billings (1818 - 1885), 'Affurisms from Josh Billings: His Sayings,' 1865

A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.
Mark Twain (1835 - 1910),

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.
Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

[gpond]

I would advise not wasting time trying to convince those who seem to have all day to promote the utterly unproven and largely disprovable, wild eyed Official 911 CT, on messageboards... if you get my drift.
I get your drift, and you are wise.

Call me a dreamer, but my impression is that Reformed Idealist is sincere.

He wants to know the truth.

[PatColo]

Couldn´t resist posting this excerpt from the landmark book "The New Pearl Harbor" by David Ray Griffin (FULL TEXT (http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/141355.php)), describing the difficult plight of those "9/11 Coincidence Theorists" who, we're asked to believe, walk among us.

This excerpt is from Chapter 9, entitled, "IS COMPLICITY BY US OFFICIALS THE BEST EXPLANATION FOR 9/11?" (http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/141355.php#chap9).

---

Problems for a Coincidence Theory

Even more important, critics of the official account could point out, rejection of the conspiracy theory exacts a high price. A conspiracy theory usually depends upon the perception of a pattern, plus a claim that the existence of this pattern is best explained by supposing that it was brought about through the combined efforts of two or more people. To reject a particular conspiracy theory of this nature requires either a denial that the alleged pattern exists or the assertion that the existence of the pattern could be purely coincidental. It would be hard to deny that the critics of the official account have discerned a pattern. They have shown that many otherwise puzzling events—before, during, and after 9/11—can be explained by the theory that high-level officials in the US government conspired to allow the attacks to occur and then to cover up this fact. Given that pattern, the price for rejecting this conspiracy theory is to accept a coincidence theory. And, critics of the official account can point out, the number of coincidences that would need to be accepted is enormous. A complete list would include the following coincidences:

1. Several FAA flight controllers exhibited extreme incompetence on 9/11, and evidendy on that day only.

2. The officials in charge at both NMCC and NORAD also acted incompetently on 9/11, and evidently on that day only.

3. In particular, when NMCC-NORAD officials did finally order jet fighters to be scrambled to protect New York and Washington, they ordered them in each case from more distant bases, rather than from McGuire and Andrews, respectively.

4. After public statements saying that Andrews Air Force Base had no jet fighters on alert to protect Washington, its website, which had previously said that many jets were always on alert, was altered.

5 Several pilots who normally are airborne and going full speed in under three minutes all took much longer to get up on 9/11.

6. These same pilots, flying planes capable of going 1,500 to 1,850 miles per hour, on that day were all evidently able to get their planes to fly only 300 to 700 miles per hour.

7. The collapse of the buildings of the World Trade Center, besides occurring at almost free-fall speed, exhibited other signs of being controlled demolitions: molten steel, seismic shocks, and fine dust were all produced.

8. The video and physical evidence suggesting that controlled demolition was the cause of the collapse of the Twin Towers co-exists with testimony from people in these buildings that they heard, felt, and saw the effects of explosions.

9. The collapse of WTC-1 and WTC-2 had some of the same features as the collapse of WTC-7, even though the latter collapse could not be attributed to the impact and jet fuel of an airplane.

10. Both the North Tower and the South Tower collapsed just as their respective fires were dying down, even though this meant that the South Tower, which had been hit second, collapsed first.

11. Governmental agencies had the debris, including the steel, from the collapsed WTC buildings removed without investigation, which is what would be expected if the government wanted to prevent evidence of explosives from being discovered.

12. Physical evidence suggesting that what hit the Pentagon could not have been a Boeing 757 co-exists with testimony of several witnesses that the aircraft that did hit the Pentagon was far smaller than a 757.

13. This evidence about the aircraft that hit the Pentagon co-exists with reports that Flight 77 crashed in Kentucky or Ohio.

14. This evidence co-exists with the fact that the only evidence that Flight 77 did not crash was supplied by an attorney closely associated with the Bush administration.

15. Evidence that Flight 77 did not return to Washington to hit the Pentagon co-exists with the fact that when the flight control transcript was released, the final 20 minutes were missing.

16. The fact that the aircraft that hit the Pentagon did so only after executing a very difficult maneuver co-exists with the fact that it struck a section of the Pentagon that, besides containing none of its leaders, was the section in which the strike would cause the least death and destruction.

17. On the same day in which jet fighters were unable to protect the Pentagon from an attack by a single airplane, the missiles that normally protect the Pentagon also failed to do so.

18. Sounds from cell phones inside Flight 93 suggesting that the plane had been hit by a missile were matched by many reports to this effect from witnesses on the ground.

19. This evidence that Flight 93 was shot down co-exists with reports from both civilian and military leaders that there was intent to shoot this flight down.

20. The only plane that was evidently shot down, Flight 93, was the only one in which it appeared that passengers were going to gain control.

21. The evidence that Flight 93 was shot down after the passengers were about to gain control co-exists with the fact that the flight control transcript for this flight was not released.

22. That coincidence co-exists with the fact that when the cockpit recording of Flight 93 was released, the final three minutes were missing.

23. Evidence showing that the US government had far more specific evidence of what was to occur on 9/11 than it has admitted co-exists with evidence that it actively blocked investigations that might have prevented the attacks.

24. Reports of obstructions from FBI agents in Minneapolis co-exist with similar reports from Chicago and New York.

25. Reports of such obstructions prior to 9/11 co-exist with reports that investigations after 9/11 were also obstructed.

26. These reports of obstructionism co-exist with multiple reports suggesting that the US government did not really try to capture or kill Osama bin Laden either prior to or after 9/11, with the result that several people independently suggested that the US government must be working for bin Laden—or vice versa.

27. All these reports co-exist with reports of hijackers being allowed in the country in spite of known terrorist connections or visa violations.

28. These reports about immigration violations co-exist with evidence that some of these same men were allowed to train at US flight schools, some on military bases.

29. This evidence of training at various American flight schools co-exists with reports that US officials tried to conceal this evidence.

30. The traumatic events of 9/11 occurred just a year after a document published by the Project for the New American Century, an organization whose founders included several men who became central figures in the Bush administration, referred to benefits that could come from "a new Pearl Harbor."

31. The "unifying Pearl Harbor sort of purple American fury" produced by the 9/11 attacks did benefit the Bush administration in many ways.

32. A credible report that spokespersons for the Bush administration had earlier announced that the US government was planning a war on Afghanistan, which would begin before the middle of October, co-exists with the fact that the attacks of 9/11, by occurring on that date, gave US military forces time to be ready to attack Afghanistan on October 7.

33. Ahmad Masood, whose continued existence would have posed problems for US plans in Afghanistan, was assassinated, reportedly by ISI operatives, just after the head of the ISI, General Mahmoud Ahmad, had been meeting in Washington for several days with the head of the CIA.

34. In the White Houses version of the recording of Condoleezza Rice's press briefing on May 16, the only portion that was inaudible was the portion in which the person under discussion, mentioned as having been in Washington on 9/11, was identified as "the ISI chief."

35. Evidence of official efforts to conceal General Ahmad's presence in Washington co-exists with evidence that, after it became known that General Ahmad had ordered $100,000 wired to Mohamed Atta, US leaders exerted pressure on the ISI to dismiss him from his post quietly.

36. Evidence of these attempts to conceal General Ahmad's involvement in 9/11 co-exists with evidence that the FBI and other federal agencies sought to obscure the fact that Saeed Sheikh, the man who wired the money to Atta, was an ISI agent.

37. The fact that agents in FBI headquarters who presided over the alleged intelligence failure that allowed 9/11 to happen, widely called the biggest intelligence failure since Pearl Harbor, were promoted instead of fired or otherwise punished co-exists with the fact that other intelligence agencies also reported that there had been no punishments for incompetence related to 9/11.

38. This evidence of lack of punishment for poor performance co-exists with reports that intelligence officers who were diligendy trying to pursue investigations related to 9/11 suffered negative treatment from superiors.

As can be seen, what some critics call the incompetence theory can be understood as simply part of a larger coincidence theory, because it entails that FAA agents, NMCC and NORAD officials, pilots, immigration agents, US military leaders in Afghanistan, and numerous US intelligence agencies all coincidentally acted with extreme and unusual incompetence when dealing with matters related to 9/11.

But the coincidence theory requires even greater credulity. To accept it requires holding not only that each conjunction of events on the above list -- which a conspiracy theory could explain by regarding each one as part of a pattern of events that had been planned — was purely coincidental. It also requires holding that the fact that there are so many events related to 9/11 that involve coincidences—at least 38 such events—is itself purely coincidental.

Seen in this light, the fact that a complicity theory may not at this time be able to answer all the questions it evokes, revisionists can say, is a relatively trivial problem. Once the relevant facts are put before us, the official account involves a coincidence theory that would require far greater credulity than that of which "conspiracy theorists" are accused.

Furthermore, the fact that the revisionists cannot yet answer all questions would be important only if they were claiming to have presented a fully conclusive case. But they are not. Meyssan, for example, tells readers that he is not asking them to accept his argument "as the definitive truth," but instead hopes that his readers will use his references to examine the evidence for themselves.>28 Ahmed says that the purpose of his book is not to provide a definitive account but merely "to clarify the dire need for an in-depth investigation into the events of 11th September.">29

My book is an attempt to show, in relatively brief form, that he and the others have done just this.

FULL TEXT (http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/141355.php), with references.

[Spacecat]

They Used to be public servants, now they are authority

We used to be Citizens , now we are Civilians.

[Ponce Cuba]

With many being prisoners and slaves.

[Blue_pill_envy]

I know I'm going to hate myself in the morning but.......

Reformer Idealist……
Why do you constantly refer to the perpetrators of September 11 as “Arab hijackers”?
What inside scoop do you possess?
If you have information that they are indeed “Arab”, you should do your civic duty and contact the FBI…….Immediately.....because they sure as hell don’t seem to have this info.

Where are you getting this 19 Arab hijacker crap from? The NYT?

just a few of many points that could be made...
.....................
On Sept.23,2001,FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged that the identity of several of the suicide hijackers is in doubt.
………………………….
He also conceded on September 20 and September 27 (2001)…. That….. at this time, the FBI has no conclusive evidence to prove the true identities of the hijackers.
…………………………………
He admitted in April 2002, that the FBI had come up absolutely empty after “We ran down literally hundreds of thousands of leads and checked every record we could get our hands on, from flight reservations to car rentals to bank accounts,”.

………………………..
"We may never know everybody who participated," said Michael Chertoff,
……………………………..


There is no evidence of hijackers.
There is no evidence that says there were 19 (or 20) co-conspirators.
There is no evidence that all conspirators were male.
There is no evidence that any of them were “Arab”.

It’s been 4.5 years. ……… You think it might be time for you actually look into some of this stuff?

..

[Halophyte]

Yup, no hijackers .... no radio communique' that the airliners were 'out of control' ..... no dead passengers ..... no funerals ........ hell, there wasn't even airplanes.


.

[gpond]

Yup, no hijackers .... no radio communique' that the airliners were 'out of control' ..... no dead passengers ..... no funerals ........ hell, there wasn't even airplanes.


."Evidence". Lay it out. "Evidence". Show me.

[gpond]

"Evidence". Lay it out. "Evidence". Show me.IOW, prove it.

[Halophyte]

"Evidence". Lay it out. "Evidence". Show me.

I can't, cause it's just a spin doctor conpiracy theory.

.

[Reformed Idealist]

I get your drift, and you are wise.

Call me a dreamer, but my impression is that Reformed Idealist is sincere.

He wants to know the truth.

I do find it amusing that I am kind of a pariah on this board - like shh, don't talk to him, he is on the other side. Either that or a snort about how obviously blind and ingorant I must be. What is so wise about ignoring everyone except those that parrot your own viewpoints and opinions?

Yes, what I want to know is the truth. But don't you think if anyone knew the whole truth it would explain everything that happened very easily instead of having to list dozens of minor trivia and coincidences and trying to weave them into some grand theory that really doesn't stand up. For example, what is easier to grasp - that 19-20 men schemed, planned and executed the hijacking of 4 airliners that then crashed in a terror plot, or a loose, disjointed theory involving most members of both the U.S. and Israeli government in a far-reaching, complex, and hopelessly technical feat of creating a fake terror event that relied on thousands of insiders, perfect timing, destruction of "evidence" and not one stray document or slip-up which would blow their cover? It would be far easier to believe that some government - the US, Israel, or AQ created this cell and either paid them or brainwashed them to commit this act than the alternative. Again, why involve planes at all if all you are trying to do is create a new Pearl Harbor. Just blow up the WTC the old fashioned way.

Again, I don't know what the exact truth is, but I do know that most of what has been put forth here is false.

PatColo, your 38 "coincidences" are supposed to do what? Prove 9-11 was a sham? I mean to believe all of that involves believes that hundreds or thousands of people are in on the fix. That is just too much.

[gpond]

I don't think that "easier to grasp" should be the final criteria. Do you?

You agreed that we should/could have an investigation. I like that.

I like that you are thinking!

[Ponce Cuba]

The truth is what you believe to be the truth and the only way that you can find your truth is to do your own research as I have about those Zionists wanabe Jews.

"When the truth comes into the light the lies will hide in the dark"... Ponce