What brought the towers down???

[Halophyte]

Your still trying to figure how to collect the reward from the O.J. trial, so you will have enough money for your fraudulent 1,000 ounce reward offered here...

Catch a red eye to L.A. I heard they spotted the O.J. slasher in Compton....
He was driving a White S.U.V. real slowly....
in fact some folks labeled it a "Slow speed chase"

Hurry Halo, need that reward before enough evidence piles up here to collect that 1,000 ounces that was promised....

"once a fraud....."

Nothing like hard hitting factual arguement there, LS. Your overtaxed sense of humor has reached new outer limits. Quite emotional of you.

As far as your claims of "fraud" - I accept your presentment for its value and return the dishonor.

Would you like to make another offer ?

you need to follow the other thread, Halo has announced that it is now due to "Steel Fastener failures" (Both buildings simultaneously)

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showt...d=1#post183183

I know it sounds incredible to have 10,000+ steel fasteners give out at the same time.... But these things happen from time to time....

I am sure the victims families will understand...

They are called "VB" dampers, they are made of and attached to the trusses by plastic compounds. They have limited thermal resistance and limited shear strengths.

Selective memory LS ?




And PLEASE, save us the drama of "victim" advocacy, some of us simply do not have enough Maalox on hand.


.

[Large Sarge]

Nothing like hard hitting factual arguement there, LS. Your overtaxed sense of humor has reached new outer limits. Quite emotional of you.

As far as your claims of "fraud" - I accept your presentment for its value and return the dishonor.

Would you like to make another offer ?



They are called "VB" dampers, they are made of and attached to the trusses by plastic compounds. They have limited thermal resistance and limited shear strengths.

Selective memory LS ?




And PLEASE, save us the drama of "victim" advocacy, some of us simply do not have enough Maalox on hand.


.

???

Please halo,

Time to move onto something else....

this horse is long dead, you and the govt can continue the propaganda....

people with any intelligence have long ago figured this one out and have moved on.

[Halophyte]

Sorry if I left ya' behind old buddy, but I did owe you a response for your claim.

[slvrbugjim]

Steel Fastener failures

Hmm on all three buildings?? How about 509 firemen and police and first responders testifying that without they heard and saw explosions both before, (up to 20 minutes) and after the collapse of all three buildings.

This was just recently released after a FOIA was filed by the families that believe that the buildings were blown up by CD.

http://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/index.php?showtopic=74444

[RealityCheck]

I havent followed this thread, but did you guys hear that Stephen Jones got samples of the WTC steel and had it independently tested for thermite, and it came up a match? (supposedly a specific type as well.) He is supposed to be on Alex Jones tommorow, may be a good listen!

[bigjon]

When I first heard the explosives conspiracy, I googled a few stories about demolitions of skyscrapers.

The time it takes to wire up a smaller skyscraper is on the order of weeks. This includes knocking out walls, cutting (weakening) beams, placing the charges and connecting them with wiring. It does not include concealing that this has been done.

Maybe the WTC towers were wired for demolition at construction, but that's a long time to keep a secret, especially when there are tenants remodeling.

The official story mostly makes sense, from what I can tell. Steel is a rather funny material. Years ago (before 9/11) I was really interested in post&beam and log home construction, and I remember seeing a picture of a partially burnt home with wooden beams supporting an I-beam. The wooden beams were charred, but still strong enough to support the I-beam, which had weakened and sagged. It didn't melt (the fire wasn't hot enough for that), it just sagged. AFAICT, the official story was that the beams sagged in the heat, which put too much force on the connections at the ends of the beams, and and the beams tore free, dropping a floor onto the floor below it. Then the floor below it, which all of a sudden had a huge live load placed on it, failed, and the cycle repeated. (I have a nice expensive college textbook that deals with the forces involved. Pre-9/11, so it should be illuminati-free! Actually, I have two textbooks about this -- statics and dynamics.)

The only conspiracy theory that is required for the tower's collapse is a conspiracy on the part of architects and engineers to cut construction costs and maximize floor space in what was one of the tallest inhabitable man-made structures on earth.

PS: Darkside -- if you throw a motolov cocktail through a window, how hot would the frame of the window be?

I live in a wireless world, with nodes surrounding me.

In this wireless world it would be childs play to have an addressable node at the location of each charge. It would also be possible for the nodes status to be checked to make certain that all was in readiness for the big day.

When they bring down a structure normally, the weakening of the structure by cutting main supports allows the demolition to be achieved at a lower cost. It is cheaper to use oxyacetylene than explosives, but that doesn't mean that explosives couldn't have been used or wasn't used. I don't think cost of demolition was a consideration, but rather stealth was the main driving factor.

By way of deception, thou shalt do war.

[bigjon]

Nothing like hard hitting factual arguement there, LS. Your overtaxed sense of humor has reached new outer limits. Quite emotional of you.

As far as your claims of "fraud" - I accept your presentment for its value and return the dishonor.

Would you like to make another offer ?



They are called "VB" dampers, they are made of and attached to the trusses by plastic compounds. They have limited thermal resistance and limited shear strengths.

Selective memory LS ?




And PLEASE, save us the drama of "victim" advocacy, some of us simply do not have enough Maalox on hand.


.

and the pancake theory belong's at Ihop, ar the core 47 columns would be unaffected by this scenario and that is why it is only heard from loony tune halo.:banana: :banana: :banana: :haha:

[Halophyte]

Wireless nodes ? You mean like the little blinky light boxes in the movies ?

Hey MacGyver here's a hint, the experts in the explosive demo business quit that years ago, seems there was a little problem about RF ... besides, still gotta load up a chit-load of boom-booms to do the dirty deed. Kind of hard to 'remote control' that part of the job.


.

[slvrbugjim]

Actually that was a long thread, the portion of the thread that I posted originally is found here regarding FOIA first responders testifying about bombs in the building and subsequently were all given gag orders.

http://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/index.php?showtopic=74444&st=20#

[bigjon]

Wireless nodes ? You mean like the little blinky light boxes in the movies ?

Hey MacGyver here's a hint, the experts in the explosive demo business quit that years ago, seems there was a little problem about RF ... besides, still gotta load up a chit-load of boom-booms to do the dirty deed. Kind of hard to 'remote control' that part of the job.


.

You construction types are always way behind the curve when it comes to sophisticated equipment.

After you flunked out of electrical engineering, you all went to the lowest rung on the ladder civil engineer and after you flunked that you became a welder.

[Halophyte]

Beats being a tinfoil hat moron.

Hey BJ, got 8000 lbs of thermite for ya to lug up the stairs ... :haha:

[bigjon]

Beats being a tinfoil hat moron.

Hey BJ, got 8000 lbs of thermite for ya to lug up the stairs ... :haha:

Ad Hominem from our BS specialist, hollow:boxing:

[Halophyte]

Hey BJ, your shoes are untied.

[Halophyte]

Too late to respond, I saw you looking down.

[runcible]

Runcible

What about building 7? No planes hit that building. Watch the footage of the building collapse it is a perfect demo with the crimp in the middle and everything.

Larry Silverman said on a PBS special that they decided to pull building 7 which is a demolition term. Now you just posted that it would take weeks to set up a demolition of even a small skyscraper and I agree with that. So how did they demo it in a matter of hours?

As a demolition term, "to pull" seems to refer to literally pulling the verticle supports away from the bottom of a structure with cables. Kind of like in action movies where someone kicks out the support for a porch roof, the porch roof swings down, and knocks out the bad guys.

I don't see many people arguing that happened during WTC7. (It was the method later used to bring down WTC6, however!)

OTOH, "to pull" can also refer to moving men away from a structure. I believe that this is the more likely explanation.

As for what brought WTC7 down, I would imagine that a combination of the 43,000 gallons of diesel fuel on the roof (for the emergency generators) and falling debris from the twin towers were the primary factors. I haven't checked to see the the official report on the WTC7 collapse is out yet (IIRC, it is due sometime this year), so I can't comment on the official story.

Btw, (and this is a mini-rant), I really wish conspiracy theorists would do their homework. Several of the sites that argue for a controlled demolition have some rather basic errors in their argument. For example, a common one that I've seen argues that the towers fell at free-fall speeds -- then gives a time which would require greater than free fall speeds. This is basic physics!

You don't need to believe me. Look this up yourself: Acceleration due to gravity (g) is 9.8m/s^2. To figure out how far a dropped object travels, you use this equation: distance = .5 * gravity * time. If you want to solve for time, try: 2 * distance / gravity (or 2 * d / g) = time.

Anyways, that's my $.02 on the issue. The conspiracy theories I've seen haven't impressed me. YMMV.

[slvrbugjim]

Runcible

You have not done any research on this subject. As far as the diesel fuel in WTC 7, Fema states that this is a highly unlikely scenario and says that it is unexplainable, the NIST report does not address the issue but says and has said that they will be forth coming with more info, now waiting for a couple of years, still with nothing.

As far as free fall speed look here.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4322650841860671469

Using your own words, you really need to do more research before sticking your head up your ass.

Or is it difficult for you to believe that these persons that have been lying to us now for years, somehow are sqeaky clean on the 911 issue. If this is what you think then you are either naive, ignorant or do not care. IMO< anyone that does complete research, will see that there are holes in the official story.

Nope sorry Silverstien said decided to pull it, not pull them. Good try but that does not work.

[bigjon]

As a demolition term, "to pull" seems to refer to literally pulling the verticle supports away from the bottom of a structure with cables. Kind of like in action movies where someone kicks out the support for a porch roof, the porch roof swings down, and knocks out the bad guys.

I don't see many people arguing that happened during WTC7. (It was the method later used to bring down WTC6, however!)

OTOH, "to pull" can also refer to moving men away from a structure. I believe that this is the more likely explanation.

As for what brought WTC7 down, I would imagine that a combination of the 43,000 gallons of diesel fuel on the roof (for the emergency generators) and falling debris from the twin towers were the primary factors. I haven't checked to see the the official report on the WTC7 collapse is out yet (IIRC, it is due sometime this year), so I can't comment on the official story.

Btw, (and this is a mini-rant), I really wish conspiracy theorists would do their homework. Several of the sites that argue for a controlled demolition have some rather basic errors in their argument. For example, a common one that I've seen argues that the towers fell at free-fall speeds -- then gives a time which would require greater than free fall speeds. This is basic physics!

You don't need to believe me. Look this up yourself: Acceleration due to gravity (g) is 9.8m/s^2. To figure out how far a dropped object travels, you use this equation: distance = .5 * gravity * time. If you want to solve for time, try: 2 * distance / gravity (or 2 * d / g) = time.

Anyways, that's my $.02 on the issue. The conspiracy theories I've seen haven't impressed me. YMMV.

You're just another apologist for the official conspiracy theory, you know the looniest one where 19 Arab's directed by a guy in a cave in Afghanistan wreaked havoc on 9/11.

The looniest of all 9/11 conspiracy theories

“Let us not tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories,” President Bush stated amid increasingly loud accusations that his administration may have allowed the tragic events of 9/11 to occur as a pretext justifying U.S. expansion of armed conflict around the world to allegedly wage war on terrorism. Curiously, most of the “outrageous conspiracy theories” to which he refers incorporate some extremely sound science, logic and witness testimony where the official version is lacking in those critical areas. The following is a rather clever and immensely sarcastic approach to the government's explanation of 9/11 -- which follows a pattern established by the “magic bullet theory” to explain the assassination of JFK and a Ryder truck full of fertilizer and fuel oil to explain the damage at the Murrah federal building in OK City.

by Gerard Holmgren

Astute observers of history are aware that for every notable event there will usually be at least one ,often several wild conspiracy theories which spring up around it. “The CIA killed Hendrix”; “the Pope had John Lennon murdered”; “Hitler was half Werewolf”; “Space aliens replaced Nixon with a clone,” etc, etc. The bigger the event, the more ridiculous and more numerous are the fanciful rantings which circulate in relation to it.

So its hardly surprising that the events of Sept. 11, 2001, have spawned their fair share of these ludicrous fairy tales. And as always, there is -- sadly -- a small but gullible percentage of the population eager to lap up these tall tales, regardless of facts or rational analysis.

One of the wilder stories circulating about Sept 11 (and one that has attracted something of a cult following amongst conspiracy buffs) is that it was carried out by 19 fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that they “hate our freedoms.”

Never a group of people to be bothered by facts, the perpetrators of this cartoon fantasy have constructed an elaborately woven web of delusions and unsubstantiated hearsay in order to promote this garbage across the Internet and the media to the extent that a number of otherwise rational people have actually fallen under its spell.

Normally I don't even bother debunking this kind of junk, but the effect that this paranoid myth is beginning to have requires a little rational analysis, in order to consign it to the same rubbish bin as all such silly conspiracy theories.

These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush regime was caught unawares by the attacks, had no hand in organizing them and actually would have stopped them if it had been able. Blindly ignoring the stand down of the U.S. Air Force, the insider trading on airline stocks (linked to the CIA), the complicit behavior of Bush on the morning of the attacks, the controlled demolition of the WTC, the firing of a missile into the Pentagon and a host of other documented proofs that the Bush regime was behind the attacks, the conspiracy theorists stick doggedly to a silly story about 19 Arab hijackers somehow managing to commandeer four planes simultaneously and fly them around U.S. airspace for nearly two hours, crashing them into important buildings, without the U.S. intelligence services having any idea that it was coming, and without the Air Force knowing what to do.

The daunting task of analysis

The huge difficulties with such a stupid story force them to invent even more preposterous stories to distract from its core silliness, and thus the tale has escalated into a mythic fantasy of truly gargantuan proportions.

It's difficult to apply rational analysis to such unmitigated stupidity, but that is the task which I take on in this article. However, it should be noted that one of the curious characteristics of conspiracy theorists is that they effortlessly change their so called evidence in response to each aspect which is debunked. As soon as one delusion is unmasked, they simply invent another to replace it and deny that the first ever existed. Eventually, when they have turned full circle through this endlessly changing fantasy fog , they then reinvent the original delusion and deny that you ever debunked it, thus beginning the circle once more. This technique is known as “the fruit loop” and saves the conspiracy theorist from ever having to see any of their ideas through to their (ill)logical conclusions.

The fruit loop

According to the practitioners of the fruit loop, 19 Arabs took over the four planes by subduing the passengers and crew through the use of guns, knives, box cutters and gas, and then used electronic guidance systems which they had smuggled on board to fly the planes to their targets.

The suspension of disbelief required for this outrageous concoction is only for the hard core conspiracy theorist. For a start, they conveniently skip over the awkward fact that there weren't any Arabs on the planes.

If there were, one must speculate that they somehow got on board without being filmed by any of the security cameras and without being registered on the passenger lists. But the curly question of how they are supposed to have got on board is all too mundane for the exciting world of the conspiracy theorist.

Who's on first?

With vague mumblings that they must have been using false ID (but never specifying which IDs they are alleged to have used, or how these were traced to their real identities), they quickly bypass this problem, to relate exciting and sinister tales about how some of the fictitious fiends were actually searched before boarding because they looked suspicious.

However, as inevitably happens with any web of lies, this simply paints them into an even more difficult corner. How are they supposed to have gotten on board with all that stuff if they were searched? And if they used gas in a confined space, they would have been affected themselves unless they also had masks in their luggage.

“Excuse me sir, why do you have a boxcutter, a gun, a container of gas, a gas mask and an electronic guidance unit in your luggage?”

“A present for your grandmother? Very well sir, on you get.”

“Very strange,” thinks the security officer. “That's the fourth Arabic man without an Arabic name who just got on board with a knife, gun or boxcutter and gas mask. And why does that security camera keep flicking off every time one these characters shows up? Must be one of those days I guess...”

Asking any of these basic questions to a conspiracy theorist is likely to cause a sudden leap to the claim that we know that they were on board because they left a credit card trail for the tickets they had purchased and cars they had rented. So, if they used credit cards that identified them, how does that reconcile with the claim that they used false IDs to get on to the plane?

But by this time, the fruit loop is in full swing, as the conspiracy theorist tries to stay one jump ahead of this annoying and awkward rational analysis. They will allege that the hijackers' passports were found at the crash scenes. “So there!” they exalt triumphantly, their fanatical faces lighting up with that deranged look of one who has just experienced a revelation of questionable sanity.

Hmm? So they got on board with false IDs but took their real passports with them? However, by this time the fruit loop has been completely circumnavigated, and the conspiracy theorist exclaims impatiently, “Who said anything about false IDs? We know what seats they were sitting in! Their presence is well documented!”

And so the whole loop starts again. “Well, why aren't they on the passenger lists?”

“You numbskull! They assumed the identities of other passengers!” And so on...

Finally, out of sheer fascination with this circular method of creative delusion, the rational sceptic will allow them to get away with this loop, in order to move on to the next question, and see what further delights await us in the unraveling of this marvelously stupid story.

“Uh, how come their passports survived fiery crashes that completely incinerated the planes and all the passengers?”

The answer of course is that its just one of those strange coincidences, those little quirks of fate that do happen from time to time. You know, like the same person winning the lottery four weeks in a row. The odds are astronomical, but these things do happen...

This is another favourite deductive method of the conspiracy theorist. The “improbability drive,” in which they decide upon a conclusion without any evidence whatsoever to support it, and then continually speculate a series of wildly improbable events and unbelievable coincidences to support it, shrugging off the implausibility of each event with the vague assertion that sometimes the impossible happens (just about all the time in their world).

There is a principle called “Occam's razor” which suggests that in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct. Conspiracy theorists hate Occam's razor.

Hijacking 101

Having for the sake of amusement, allowed them to get away with the silly story of the 19 invisible Arabs, we move on to the question of how they are supposed to have taken over the planes.

Hijacking a plane is not an easy thing to do. Hijacking it without the pilot being able to alert ground control is nearly impossible. The pilot has only to punch in a four digit code to alert ground control to a hijacking. Unconcerned with the awkward question of plausibility, the conspiracy buffs maintain that on that Sept 11, the invisible hijackers took over the plane by the rather crude method of threatening people with boxcutters and knives, and spraying gas (after they had attached their masks, obviously), but somehow took control of the plane without the crew first getting a chance to punch in the hijacking code. Not just on one plane, but on all four. At this point in the tale, the conspiracy theorist is again forced to call upon the services of the improbability drive.

So now that our incredibly lucky hijackers have taken control of the planes, all four pilots fly them with breathtaking skill and certainty to their fiery end -- all four unflinching in their steely resolve for a swift meeting with Allah.

Apart from their psychotic hatred of “our freedoms,” it was their fanatical devotion to Islam which enabled them to summon up the iron will to do this. Which is strange, because according to another piece of hearsay peddled by the conspiracy buffs, these guys actually went out drinking and womanizing the night before their great martyrdom, even leaving their Korans in the bar -- really impeccable Islamic behavior -- and then got up at 5 a.m. the next morning to pull off the greatest covert operation in history.

This also requires us to believe that they were even clear headed enough to learn how to fly the huge planes by reading flight manuals in Arabic in the car on the way to the airport. We know this because they supposedly left the flight manuals there for us to find.

It gets better. Their practical training had allegedly been limited to Cessnas and flight simulators, but this was no barrier to the unflinching certainty with which they took over the planes and skillfully guided them to their doom.

If they are supposed to have done their flight training with these tools, which would be available just about anywhere in the world, its not clear why they would have decided to risk blowing their cover to U.S. intelligence services by doing the training in Florida, rather than somewhere in the Middle East, but such reasoning is foreign to the foggy world of the conspiracy theorist, too trapped in the constant rotation of the mental fruit loop to make their unsubstantiated fabrications seem even semi-believable.

A Ryder truck with wings?

Having triumphantly established a circular delusion in support of the mythical Arabs, the conspiracy theorist now confronts the difficult question of why there's nothing left of the planes. Anybody who has seen the endlessly replayed footage of the second plane going into the WTC will realize that the plane was packed with explosives. Planes do not and cannot blow up into nothing in that manner when they crash.

Did the mythical Arabs also haul a huge heap of explosives on board, and manage to deploy them in such a manner that they went off in the exact instant of the crash, completely vapourizing the plane?

This is a little difficult even for the conspiracy theorist, who at this point decides that its easier to invent new laws of physics in order to keep the delusion rolling along.

There weren't any explosives. It wasn't an inside job. The plane blew up into nothing from its exploding fuel load! Remarkable!

Sluggishly combustible jet fuel, which is basically kerosene and which burns at a maximum temperature of around 800 C, has suddenly taken on the qualities of a ferociously explosive demolition agent, vapourizing 65 tons of aircraft into a puff of smoke. Never mind that a plane of that size contains around 15 tons of steel and titanium, of which even the melting points are about double that of the maximum combustion temperature of kerosene -- let alone the boiling point -- which is what would be required to vapourize a plane. And then there's about 50 tons of aluminium to be accounted for.

In excess of 15 pounds of metal was vapourized for each gallon of kerosene.

For the conspiracy theorist, such inconvenient facts are vaguely dismissed as “mumbo jumbo.”

This convenient little phrase is their answer to just about anything factual or logical. Like a conjurer pulling a rabbit out of a hat, they suddenly become fanatically insistent about the devastating explosive qualities of kerosene, something hitherto completely unknown to science, but just discovered by them, at that very moment. Blissfully ignoring the fact that never before or since in aviation history has a plane vapourized into nothing from an exploding fuel load, the conspiracy theorist relies upon Hollywood images, where the effects are always larger than life, and certainly larger than the intellects of these cretins.

“Its a well known fact that planes blow up into nothing on impact,” they state with pompous certainty. “Watch any Bruce Willis movie.”

“Care to provide any documented examples? If it's a well known fact, then presumably this well known fact springs from some kind of documentation -- other than Bruce Willis movies?”

At this point the mad but cunning eyes of the conspiracy theorist will narrow as they sense the corner that they have backed themselves into, and plan their escape by means of another stunning backflip.

“Ah, but planes have never crashed into buildings before, so there's no way of telling,” they counter with a sly grin.

Well, actually planes have crashed into buildings before (and since). None of them vapourized into almost nothing.

“But not big planes, with that much fuel,” they shriek in hysterical denial.

Or that much metal to vapourize.

“Yes but not hijacked planes!”

“Are you suggesting that whether the crash is deliberate or accidental affects the combustion qualities of the fuel?”

“Now you're just being silly.”

Although collisions with buildings are rare, planes frequently crash into mountains, streets, other aircraft, nosedive into the ground, or have bombs planted aboard them, and don't vapourize into nothing. What's so special about a tower that's mostly glass? But by now, the conspiracy theorist has once again sailed happily around the fruit loop. “Its a well documented fact that planes explode into nothing on impact.”

Effortlessly weaving back and forth between the position that its a “well known fact” and that “its never happened before, so we have nothing to compare it to,” the conspiracy theorist has now convinced themselves (if not too many other people) that the WTC plane was not loaded with explosives, and that the instant vapourization of the plane in a massive fireball was the same as any other plane crash you might care to mention. Round and round the fruit loop...

The “new math”

But the hurdles which confront the conspiracy theorist are many, and they are now forced to implement even more creative uses for the newly discovered shockingly destructive qualities of kerosene. They have to explain how the Arabs also engineered the elegant vertical collapse of both the WTC towers, and for this awkward fact the easiest counter is to simply deny that it was a controlled demolition, and claim that the buildings collapsed from fire caused by the burning kerosene.

For this, its necessary to sweep aside the second law of thermodynamics and propose kerosene, which is not only impossibly destructive, but also recycles itself for a second burning in violation of the law of degradation of energy.

You see, it not only consumed itself in a sudden catastrophic fireball, vapourizing a 65-ton plane into nothing, but then came back for a second go, burning at 2000 degrees C for another hour at the impact point, melting the skyscraper's steel like butter. And, while it was doing all this, it also poured down the elevator shafts, starting fires all through the building.

When I was at school there was a little thing called the entropy law which suggests that a given portion of fuel can only burn once, something which is readily observable in the real world, even for those who didn't make it to junior high school science. But this is no problem for the conspiracy theorist. Gleefully, they claim that a few thousand gallons of kerosene is enough to:

1. completely vapourize a 65 ton aircraft;

2. have enough left over to burn ferociously enough for over an hour at the impact point to melt steel ( melting point about double the maximum combustion temperature of the fuel );

3. still have enough left over to pour down the elevator shafts and start similarly destructive fires all throughout the building.

This kerosene really is remarkable stuff! How chilling to realize that those kerosene heaters we had in the house when I was a kid were deadly bombs, just waiting to go off. One false move and the entire street might have been vapourized. And never again will I take kerosene lamps out camping. One moment you're there innocently holding the lamp, the next moment -- kapow! Vapourized into nothing along with the rest of the camp site, and still leaving enough of the deadly stuff to start a massive forest fire.

These whackos are actually claiming that the raging inferno allegedly created by the miraculously recycling, and impossibly hot burning kerosene melted or at least softened the steel supports of the skyscraper. Oblivious to the fact that the smoke coming from the WTC was black, which indicates an oxygen starved fire and, therefore, not particularly hot, they trumpet an alleged temperature in the building of 2000 C , without a shred of evidence to support this curious suspension of the laws of physics.

Not content with this ludicrous garbage, they then contend that as the steel frames softened, they came straight down instead of buckling and twisting and falling sideways.

Laws be damned

Since they've already re-engineered the combustion qualities of jet fuel, violated the second law of thermodynamics, and redefined the structural properties of steel, why let a little thing like the laws of gravity get in the way?

The tower fell in a time almost identical to that of a free-falling object, dropped from that height, meaning that it's physically impossible for it to have collapsed by the method of the top floors smashing through the lower floors.

But, according to the conspiracy theorists, the laws of gravity were temporarily suspended on the morning of Sept 11. It appears that the evil psychic power of those dreadful Arabs knew no bounds. Even after they were dead, they were able, by the power of their evil spirits, to force down the tower at a speed physically impossible under the laws of gravity, had it been meeting any resistance from fireproofed steel structures originally designed to resist many tons of hurricane force wind -- as well as the impact of a Boeing passenger jet straying off course.

Clearly, these conspiracy nuts never did their science homework at school, but did become extremely adept at inventing tall tales for why they couldn't complete their assignments.

“Muslim terrorists stole my notes, sir”

“No miss, the kerosene heater blew up and vapourized everything in the street, except for my passport.”

“You see sir, the school bus was hijacked by Arabs who destroyed my homework because they hate our freedoms.”

Or perhaps they misunderstood the term “creative science” and mistakenly thought that coming up with such rubbish was in fact, their science homework.

The ferocious heat generated by this ghastly kerosene was, according to the conspiracy theorists, the reason why so many of the WTC victims can't be identified. DNA is destroyed by heat. (Although 2000 C isn't really required, 100 degrees C will generally do the job).

This is quite remarkable, because according to the conspiracy theorist, the nature of DNA suddenly changes if you go to a different city.

Not all DNA created equal

That's right! If you are killed by an Arab terrorist in NY, your DNA will be destroyed by such temperatures. But if you are killed by an Arab terrorist in Washington DC, your DNA will be so robust that it can survive temperatures which completely vapourize a 65-ton aircraft.

You see, these loonies have somehow concocted the idea that the missile which hit the pentagon was not a missile at all, but one of the hijacked planes. And to prove this unlikely premise, they point to a propaganda statement from the Bush regime, which rather stupidly claims that all but one of the people aboard the plane were identified from the site by DNA testing, even though nothing remains of the plane.

“The plane was vapourized by the fuel tank explosion,” maintain these space loonies, but only one of the people inside it were not identified by DNA testing.

So there we have it. The qualities of DNA are different, depending upon which city you're in, or perhaps depending upon which fairy story you're trying to sell at any particular time.

Missiles have wings, too

This concoction about one of the hijacked planes hitting the Pentagon really is a howler. For those not familiar with the layout of the Pentagon, it consists of five rings of building, each with a space in between. Each ring of building is about 30 to 35 feet deep, with a similar amount of open space between it and the next ring.

The object which penetrated the Pentagon went in at about a 45 degree angle, punching a neat, circular hole about 12 feet in diameter through three rings (six walls).

A little later a section of wall about 65 feet wide collapsed in the outer ring. Since the plane, which the conspiracy theorists claim to be responsible for the impact, had a wing span of 125 feet and a length of 155 feet and there was no wreckage of the plane, either inside or outside the building, and the lawns outside were still smooth and green enough to play golf on, this crazy delusion is clearly a physical impossibility.

But hey, we've already disregarded the combustion qualities of jet fuel, the normal properties of common building materials, the properties of DNA, the laws of gravity and the second law of thermodynamics, so what the hell -- why not throw in a little spatial impossibility as well?

I would have thought that the observation that a solid object cannot pass through another solid object without leaving a hole at least as big as itself is reasonably sound science. But to the conspiracy theorist, this is “mumbo jumbo.” It conflicts with the delusion that they're hooked on, so it “must be wrong” although trying to get them to explain exactly how it could be wrong is a futile endeavour.

Conspiracy theorists fly into a curious panic whenever the Pentagon missile is mentioned. They nervously maintain that the plane was vapourized by it's exploding fuel load and point to the WTC crash as evidence of this behavior (That is a wonderful fruit loop).

Like an insect which has just been sprayed, running back and forth in its last mad death throes, they first argue that the reason the hole is so small is that the plane never entered the wall, having blown up outside, and then suddenly backflip to explain the 250 feet deep missile hole by saying that the plane disappeared all the way into the building, and then blew up inside the building (even though the building shows no sign of such damage).

As for what happened to the wings, here's where they get really creative. The wings snapped off and folded into the fuselage which then carried them into the building, which then closed up behind the plane like a piece of meat.

When it suits them, they'll also claim that the plane slid in on its belly, (ignoring the undamaged lawn) while at the same time citing alleged witnesses to the plane diving steeply into the building from an “irrecoverable angle.”

How they reconcile these two scenarios as being compatible is truly a study in applied stupidity.

Epilogue

Once they get desperate enough, you can be sure that the UFO conspiracy stuff will make an appearance. The Arabs are in league with the Martians. Space aliens snatched the remains of the Pentagon plane and fixed most of the hole in the wall, just to confuse people. They gave the Arabs invisibility pills to help get them onto the planes. Little green men were seen talking to Bin Laden a few weeks prior to the attacks.

As the nation gears up to impeach the traitor Bush, and stop his perpetual oil war, it's not helpful to have these idiots distracting from the process by spreading silly conspiracy theories about mythical Arabs, stories which do nothing but play into the hands of the extremist Bush regime.

At a less serious time, we might tolerate such crackpots with amused detachment, but they need to understand that the treachery that was perpetrated on Sept. 11, and the subsequent war crimes committed in “retaliation” are far too serious for us to allow such frivolous self indulgence to go unchallenged.

Those who are truly addicted to conspiracy delusions should find a more appropriate outlet for their paranoia.

Its time to stop loony conspiracy theories about Sept 11.

Copyright Gerard Holmgren. Jan 2003 debunker@hotmail.com

[Veritas]

"to pull" can also refer to moving men away from a structure. I believe that this is the more likely explanation.

The quote "to pull" was in reference to the building itself...not to personel. Silverstein said, "that's when I decided to pull the building". If Silverstein was referring to pulling men as you foolishly specualte, he would have said, "that's when I decided to pull the men from the building". However, he did NOT say this...and he did not have any men to pull. The only people near the building were FEMA, FDNY, and NYC Port Authority. Silverstein was not at their command.

As for what brought WTC7 down, I would imagine that a combination of the 43,000 gallons of diesel fuel on the roof (for the emergency generators) and falling debris from the twin towers were the primary factors.

Falling debris caused a 47 story steel framed building to imploded and collapse into it's own footprints? You really have quite an imagination. Have you always "imagined" your way through life?

You don't need to believe me.

Yeah, enough said. :withstupi

[azxcvbnm321]

The biggest argument against the conspiracy theories and for the "offical" story is the continuing terrorism all around the world. Bali has been hit several times, as well as Egypt, London, and let's not forget Iraq. A great number of these were suicide bombings. I don't know about you, but there's no way in hell a CIA agent could persuade me to blow myself up--my life is just too valuable. Only a religious zealot, someone who thinks that a better afterlife awaits, would give up his life. We're talking about life here folks, the most valuable possession you have. Again, no CIA agent or government could possibly offer enough for someone to blow themselves up so that SOMEONE ELSE CAN REAP THE REWARDS!!!!

[azxcvbnm321]

Let me offer yet another objection to the conspiracies. Let's assume the World Trade Center was destroyed by explosives in a massive conspiracy. Whoever orchestrated this would have to be a genius. The level of planning, execution, and deceit would be above and beyond most men.

And you expect me to believe that President Bush and his administration could have pulled that off? The same administration that COULDN'T EVEN GET WATER INTO NEW ORLEANS somehow orchestrated the destruction of the Towers? The same administration that bungled the War in Iraq, that's let Iran make fools out of us, that can't do anything right and that's lost the respect of the American people were somehow smart enough to carry out this massive conspiracy? Give me a break.

Face it, President Bush and his cronies are much too incompetent to have pulled off a conspiracy of this nature. There's no way you can fake this incompetence, a smart man would at least do SOME things right, especially the handling of unpredictable natural disasters. What good did it do to foul up New Orleans and have the World laugh at us and destroy the support of the American people? If the government (yes I put most of the blame on Governor Blanco and even more incompetent mayor Nagan) could have handled the emergency better, they'd have more support and thus could orchestrate another war instead of losing the confidence of the American people.

President Bush and the government are a bunch of stooges that aren't capable of pulling off such an undertaking. No, they are just too incompetent.

[azxcvbnm321]

Look, if President Bush was behind the attacks, the planes would have missed the World Trade Center and flown into themselves. The people setting the explosives would have accidentally blown themselves up, yet somehow leave the Towers undamaged in the process, and there would be a trail as long as the Great Wall leading to Bush. If Bush planned the attack, the World Trade Center would still be there untouched.

[thorgrim]

Here is a link.

http://www.myspace.com/wtc_7

It has tons of evidence. Watch the first video it shows building 7 collapsing from multiple angles and has the clip of Silverstein in it as well. No way it was a diesel tank that did that.

Also scroll down a bit more and you will see pics of buildings with fires much worse than towers 1,2 and 7 had that did not cause the building to collapse. It is important to note that the only steel framed skyscrapers ever to fall from fire were the 3 on 9/11. What are the odds of that? Why can't I win the lotto?

Here is another link with some more pics of fires.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/fires.html

[thorgrim]

Originally posted by azxcvbnm321
Look, if President Bush was behind the attacks, the planes would have missed the World Trade Center and flown into themselves. The people setting the explosives would have accidentally blown themselves up, yet somehow leave the Towers undamaged in the process, and there would be a trail as long as the Great Wall leading to Bush. If Bush planned the attack, the World Trade Center would still be there untouched.

Hahahaha! NO!

That is what they want us to think. Bush is portrayed as a moron because someone who is stupid can be forgiven for being stupid and inept. Do you really think that any idiot can become president? You either have to be really smart and charismatic and rich or you have to be a puppet of people or groups that are much smarter, richer and more powerful than the president.

P.S As for New Orleans does the government get more funding and control if they do the perfect job? If they do a botch job they benefit. It is funny how a bunch of retards some how got control of our government.

[Large Sarge]

As for what brought WTC7 down, I would imagine that a combination of the 43,000 gallons of diesel fuel on the roof (for the emergency generators) and falling debris from the twin towers were the primary factors. I haven't checked to see the the official report on the WTC7 collapse is out yet (IIRC, it is due sometime this year), so I can't comment on the official story.

Btw, (and this is a mini-rant), I really wish conspiracy theorists would do their homework. Several of the sites that argue for a controlled demolition have some rather basic errors in their argument. For example, a common one that I've seen argues that the towers fell at free-fall speeds -- then gives a time which would require greater than free fall speeds. This is basic physics!

You don't need to believe me. Look this up yourself: Acceleration due to gravity (g) is 9.8m/s^2. To figure out how far a dropped object travels, you use this equation: distance = .5 * gravity * time. If you want to solve for time, try: 2 * distance / gravity (or 2 * d / g) = time.

Anyways, that's my $.02 on the issue. The conspiracy theories I've seen haven't impressed me. YMMV.


Diesel fuel (or jet fuel) does not get anywhere near hot enough to melt steel.
and pools of molten steel were still found 6 weeks later in all the buildings foundations.

I get tired of Govt shills who do not do their homework.
The real conspiracy is the govt story

[Silverity]

The biggest argument against the conspiracy theories and for the "offical" story is the continuing terrorism all around the world. Bali has been hit several times, as well as Egypt, London, and let's not forget Iraq. A great number of these were suicide bombings. I don't know about you, but there's no way in hell a CIA agent could persuade me to blow myself up--my life is just too valuable. Only a religious zealot, someone who thinks that a better afterlife awaits, would give up his life. We're talking about life here folks, the most valuable possession you have. Again, no CIA agent or government could possibly offer enough for someone to blow themselves up so that SOMEONE ELSE CAN REAP THE REWARDS!!!!

I agree, no alleged CIA/NSA pawn will commit suicide in a plane. That's why they have to concoct even less likely theories about remote controlled planes.

Think about it, the planes would either:

1. have to be detoured to fit remote control devices AND
2. make sure it is secure from passengers once up in the air OR
3. kill/silence all evacuated passengers OR
4. fit remote control devices before flight under noses of every airline staff AND
5. somehow kill/disable crew so as to not override remote control OR
6. send up a decoy passenger-less plane mimicing real flights AND
7. somehow make all those real passengers disappear OR
8. make them all up and create false relatives/friends OR
9. CIA hypnotises all the crew to fly the planes into buildings AND
10. somehow devise a way to keep the crew and passangers out AND
11. errrmm ... I give up before my brain stews!

This just gets more complicated the more you try to shoehorn conspiracy into it.

[Silverity]

President Bush and the government are a bunch of stooges that aren't capable of pulling off such an undertaking. No, they are just too incompetent.

Going by various other government projects of the past and present, 9/11 does seem rather on its own for efficiency, if not unique in the history of world government.

[Silverity]

Hahahaha! NO!

That is what they want us to think. Bush is portrayed as a moron because someone who is stupid can be forgiven for being stupid and inept. Do you really think that any idiot can become president? You either have to be really smart and charismatic and rich or you have to be a puppet of people or groups that are much smarter, richer and more powerful than the president.

P.S As for New Orleans does the government get more funding and control if they do the perfect job? If they do a botch job they benefit. It is funny how a bunch of retards some how got control of our government.

Right! So all those incompetent government projects are just a front to make us think 9/11 was impossible for a bureaucratic, sluggish government to pull off?

I gotta hand it to them, they thought of everything!

[slvrbugjim]

Going by various other government projects of the past and present, 9/11 does seem rather on its own for efficiency, if not unique in the history of world government.

Exactly, some people are making the mistake that it was this administration that is responsible, the planning would have had to go back several years, which would pre-date monkey boy and his goons.

It is somewhat confusing to see some people completely out of the loop on this issue on this site, how someone could understand the crimminal enterprise fousted upon us in 1913, the FED and still not understand the criminal element that has been a huge part of this country since 1963, does not make sense.

As for 911, just see who benefited. Would someone create a fake terror event as a pretext for war and further control of the populace, yes they would and they have for thousands of years. The money supply and the Debt has increased over 50% since 911, who benefits?
Project of a New American Century got their Pearl Harbor event, so they could go to war.

Building 7 is the smoking gun, no doubt. If you really are not interested in understanding the facts then you are affraid to know or you have a reason to not care. Just do a little research, pull your head out of the sand, protect yourself and your family and know that the next manufactured terrorist attack will be much worse and will usher in martial law: end game, count on it. Understand what is going on, do not at your and your families peril.

[bigjon]

The biggest argument against the conspiracy theories and for the "offical" story is the continuing terrorism all around the world. Bali has been hit several times, as well as Egypt, London, and let's not forget Iraq. A great number of these were suicide bombings. I don't know about you, but there's no way in hell a CIA agent could persuade me to blow myself up--my life is just too valuable. Only a religious zealot, someone who thinks that a better afterlife awaits, would give up his life. We're talking about life here folks, the most valuable possession you have. Again, no CIA agent or government could possibly offer enough for someone to blow themselves up so that SOMEONE ELSE CAN REAP THE REWARDS!!!!


And you're another victim of your own imagination, just because Isreal's Mossad shows you a picture of someone who has bombs strapped all over their torso, doesn't in any way prove that the bombs were not PLANTED.

Haven't you ever noticed that Israel gets one of these "suicide bombers" to blow people up whenever they need too.

It is just too convenient.

[runcible]

I said that speculated WTC7 went down because of a combination of physical damage and fire.

Not one or another, but a combination of both.

Of course, the video evidence that shows widespread fires in WTC7 is frequently accused of being photoshopped.

Why must it be photoshopped? Because it shows widespread fires! This is why I usually avoid conspiracy threads.

Btw, someone questioned the pancake theory for the collapse of the twin towers. Perhaps I should explain a little about that theory (just so everyone is on the same page about what is being disagreed with).

The first part of that theory is that horizontal members (floors) frequently can't support as much as vertical members (walls, columns, etc). There's a rather famous engineering disaster in the US that illustrates this point: The Hyatt Regency walkway collapse. The design called for two walkways, one under another, hanging from a long cable. When installed, one walkway was suspended from the ceiling, and the other walkway was suspended underneath, using two shorter cables. The top walkway was designed to support its own weight, but ended up having to support both walkways' weights. To use an analogy, think of three people all hanging from a vertical rope. No problem, right? Now cut the rope into thirds. Suspend the first rope from the ceiling as before, and have the first man hang onto it. Tie a piece of rope to his legs, and have the second man hang from that. Then tie a piece of rope to the second man's legs, and have the third man hang from that. See how the top man has to support the weight of all the others? Much weaker.

The second part is that moving objects are "heavier" than non-moving objects. Here's another thought experiment: Imagine two tables of equal height, with a small gap between them, just slightly narrower than the height of a playing card. Placing a playing card between the gap and grab some pennies. Add pennies (weight) to the card until it collapses. Now, setup another card, and drop pennies from 5' up. (You might need to tape a few pennies together if the card stock is stiff enough.) It should take less pennies to collapse the "bridge", since the dropped pennies are transferring kinetic energy to the card when they hit it. The same effect can be seen on an old (non-electric) scale. Jumping on it will make the needle go up a lot more than standing on it.

HTH