Why the Towers Couldn't have collapsed from Gravity -- Not Enough Energy Released

[Blue_pill_envy]

That was like waiting for a boxing match, only to learn that the challenger had knocked himself out in the dressing room while tying his gloves.

The problem that the barnacles on the rear end of progress have…..is that, the laws of physics must always be observed, no matter who the observer might be.

..

[Dude]

I'm done reading. I will sleep better.
NIST as a combined investigative team blows all trite, little computations out of the water. They have not completed all investigations, but below are a sample of preliminary findings and links to some amazing work.

I pasted what I found most convincing from NIST. Read about the details in the Appendix sections for the calculation.

Preliminary Finding 1a.1:
The following chronological sequence of major events led to the eventual collapse of the
towers; specific load redistribution paths and damage scenarios for each building continue to be refined:
• Aircraft impact damage to perimeter columns, resulting in redistribution of column loads to
adjacent perimeter columns and to the core columns via the hat truss;
• After breaching the building’s exterior, the aircraft continued to penetrate into the buildings,
damaging core columns with redistribution of column loads to other intact core and perimeter
columns via the hat truss and floor systems;
• The subsequent fires, influenced by the post-impact condition of the fireproofing, weakened
columns and floor systems (including those that had been damaged by aircraft impact),
triggering additional local failures that ultimately led to column instability; and
• Initiation and horizontal progression of column instability resulted when redistributing loads
could not be accommodated any further. The collapses then ensued.

Here is a tiny, tiny piece of what NIST has been working on:
Structural Response:
• A detailed model of a typical truss-framed floor of the WTC towers with over
40,000 elements and 166,000 degrees of freedom.
• A detailed model of a typical beam-framed floor of WTC towers with over 12,000 elements
and 35,000 degrees of freedom.
• A detailed global model of WTC 1 with over 80,000 elements and 218,000 degrees of
freedom (with 17 flexible and other rigid diaphragm floors).
• A similar detailed global model of WTC 2 with over 78,000 elements and 200,000 degrees of
freedom.
• A model of a typical turbofan engine of the Boeing 767-200ER aircraft with over
60,000 elements and 100,000 nodes.
• A comprehensive model of the Boeing 767-200ER aircraft, including engines, airframe,
landing gear, fuel tanks, passenger cabin, and cargo bay, with over 530,000 elements and
740,000 nodes.

This is the list of publications.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/#sp10005 (http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/#sp10005)

This is the link for Chapter 1. 15 seconds on dsl.
http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/chapter1.pdf (http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/chapter1.pdf)

Wrs's computations using strictly vertical forces (gravity) using constants relating to non-weakened members (which they were not) after the plane struck is just plain wrong. Not taking into account load redistribution on the hundreds of thousands of elements and nodes (maybe just pick what might be the weakest to save time) shows incomplete analysis.
But there are so many, many more things left out that you can read about from NIST.
I should have known better to think someone who claims to have an MS in engineering would surmise that they could prove that explosives must have contributed to the complex collapse in a few simple paragraphs. Stupid me. I suppose you have an MCSE because you can click a mouse...

[Blue_pill_envy]

Dude,.......I'm glad you figured out a way to go back to sleep.

Sleep well.

..

[AMforPM]

wow blue pill, that gave me a cold chill. Asleep is where we all were when it hit.

Dude, where I started was with Griffin. He is calm, reasonable, and comes to this from morality. I watched his Madison talk, that Pat Colo's thread made me look up a link for and watch again. It is much more palatable to take a look without furor. Griffin is unafraid, unintimidated, yet not full of bravado or rage. And he just goes point by point through an overview.

In his overview these 2 points on the collapse are straightforward, like his work in general.

1. Tests have been run attempting to cause a steel frame building to collapse from fire before and after 9-11. No collapses.


2. The 9-11 commission falsified building design to reach its pancake theory. The load bearing structure was the central columns. The commission lied that it was the outer ones. Even if those 3 9-11 collapses could have been pancaked (the only 3 such in world history not from controlled demolition), the load bearing central columns would have been left sticking up after the floors collapsed, NOT neatly cut into 30 foot sections that controlled demolition cuts them into for hauling off (as they were).

Anyway, he is tidy like that. No wild raving, no obtuse bullsh!t, just calm, orderly, verifiable sense.

http://911busters.com/911_new_video_productions/index.html

[Dude]

NIST has and is continuing to use computer models to include many more factors than just fire. It truly is incredible how exaustive their model actually is. A 767 flown into a building is a little bit out of the ordinary.

The central columns were weakened on impact and horizontal progression of instability contributed to the collapse. I am more comfortable with the accuracy and analysis of the thousands of experts on staff and contracted to NIST.

I initially read to determine if I could plausibly believe that the towers came down the way they did without explosives. Initial results from NIST tell me yes.

I have read some of Griffin's information but it does not contain the detail nor does it have the engineering expertise or more complete analysis compared to NIST.

[bigjon]

I notice that NIST is a gov site and the Official Conspiracy Theory states that 20 Arabs brought down the World Trade Center buildings.

Suppose I were an engineer working there with a family, house payments and I decided that impacts of planes and fire alone couldn't account for the way in which the towers came down.

And I put it in writing and announced it to the world.

How long before I found out I had no job and couldn't get a job, because I was labeled as another nut job?

What happened to Kevin Ryan after he questioned the NIST results... FIRED, pronto, out, gone goodbye.

Bet he's still out of work.:thumpdown

[AMforPM]

I can go for a NIST computer model that makes that ONE factor of 9-11 plausible. It might have been possible for the 2 hit by planes to come down identically. Not cut up in the 30 foot sections controlled demolition advertises as an advantage of their demolition technique, however.

And not the building hit by no plane.

But it is the whole picture that counts. The FBI agents who tried to come forward, the air defense stand down, the puts on American and United airlines and so on and so on. The big mass of nasty loose ends.

I mean really, do you truly think an AIRLINER could trash THE PENTAGON with an hour's warning and not have inside help? They are set up for friggin armeggedon and can lock radar on a gnat. Gimme a break.

If people work their butts off on each loose end, heck, you can computer model the sun rising in the west (like our gov economic reports :haha: featuring no inflation and a great economy in robust recovery), but at some point the preponderance of evidence has to say a word to common sense.

[AMforPM]

A maybe hopeful PS-- if the government is working that hard to make it plausible then more people are waking up. It was over half of New Yorkers not buying it long since.

I do not enjoy thinking about conspiracies. But they are using this event to kill our children and rob our country blind and turn America into a horrible torturing totalitarian war machine and thus -- it matters.

They use it to justify taking medicine from grannies to fund building death stars and gulags.

It hurts, but we have to face it. For the sake of our decency.

[Dude]

There is way too much garbage out there, in my opinion. One person says one thing, another refutes it. Motivation on each individuals part varies and their true motivation may very well be hidden. I am not saying that there is not a cover up nor am I saying that explosives were not involved. First, I want to know if it can be concluded that what happened is actually possible without explosives. Some other source refuting each contention from virtually every individual can easily be found by googling. Some by PhD's in engineering, some by theologians, some by corporate and government spokesmen. It's a mess.

I don't discredit anyone on this board for believing one way or the other, or anyplace in between.

Google the text strings for more info on the specific clips below.
-------------------
"The contents of the argument itself are spurious at best, and frankly, they're just wrong," Baker said. Baker is a spokesman from UL and referred to Kevin Ryan's statements.
------------------
Some steel recovered from the WTC was exposed to fires of only 400 to 600 degrees, the institute said, but computer modeling has shown higher temperatures of 1,100 to 1,300 degrees or greater were "likely" experienced by steel in regions directly affected by the fires.
------------------------
The main support for the structure was in the center. The exterior walls were load-bearing (meaning they supported the wieght of the floors), constructed by balancing steel beams on top of each other and then connecting them with four bolts. These were joined by 30-foot sections of triangular, bent, hollow tube steel supports. The steel is bent to give it more strength.

According to Dunn, the connections are the first thing to fail under stress, and after looking at the debris at the site, all the bolts he saw from those outside beams were broken. Heat from the intense jet-fuel fire would have caused the steel to bend, but as steel bent the connections failed. Steel has no fire resistance. It has to be sprayed with concrete or other substances and be 100 percent covered to last longer under heat.

[bigjon]

There is way too much garbage out there, in my opinion. One person says one thing, another refutes it. Motivation on each individuals part varies and their true motivation may very well be hidden. I am not saying that there is not a cover up nor am I saying that explosives were not involved. First, I want to know if it can be concluded that what happened is actually possible without explosives. Some other source refuting each contention from virtually every individual can easily be found by googling. Some by PhD's in engineering, some by theologians, some by corporate and government spokesmen. It's a mess.

I don't discredit anyone on this board for believing one way or the other, or anyplace in between.

Google the text strings for more info on the specific clips below.
-------------------
"The contents of the argument itself are spurious at best, and frankly, they're just wrong," Baker said. Baker is a spokesman from UL and referred to Kevin Ryan's statements.
------------------

What would you say in light of what happened to Kevin Ryan, would you care to join him out on the street?



Some steel recovered from the WTC was exposed to fires of only 400 to 600 degrees, the institute said, but computer modeling has shown higher temperatures of 1,100 to 1,300 degrees or greater were "likely" experienced by steel in regions directly affected by the fires.
------------------------

And the flooring structure was tested to a temp of 2000 degrees and didn't fail for a several (more than 4) hour test.


The main support for the structure was in the center. The exterior walls were load-bearing (meaning they supported the wieght of the floors), constructed by balancing steel beams on top of each other and then connecting them with four bolts. These were joined by 30-foot sections of triangular, bent, hollow tube steel supports. The steel is bent to give it more strength.

According to Dunn, the connections are the first thing to fail under stress, and after looking at the debris at the site, all the bolts he saw from those outside beams were broken. Heat from the intense jet-fuel fire would have caused the steel to bend, but as steel bent the connections failed. Steel has no fire resistance. It has to be sprayed with concrete or other substances and be 100 percent covered to last longer under heat.

The ever burning jet fuel, that even NIST says was exhausted in the first few minutes. It also doesn't reach temperatures exceeding 2000 degrees.

[Dude]

So you say, so they say.
If Ryan felt obligated to release preliminary info and opinionated conjecture without approval, he got what was coming to him.

Weakened enough to bend and fail the specific WTC connectors is possible, despite someone's test of flooring structure heated to 2000 degrees for 4 hours, in my opinion.

May not need 2000 degrees and much more than a few minutes of jet fuel based on other thermodynamic and load conditions, however the fires had aircraft and building contents to stay burning throughout the collapse.

Fires go through a series of stages as they progress. As the fire gets larger and the stages progress, tenability (the ability for a person to remain unhurt in a fire area) decreases. During the incipient (initial) stage of a fire the temperature in a room is slightly over 100 F and the air is approximately 20% oxygen. As the fire grows and enters the Steady-State Phase (free-burning phase) smoke and gases rise to the top of the room and spread laterally across the ceiling. Oxygen is pulled into the room to fuel the fire and the temperature in the upper regions of the fire can exceed 1,300̊ F. The super-heated air at the top of the room will sear a person’s lungs in one breath. If sufficient oxygen is available for the fire, flash over occurs (everything in the room becomes so hot it ignites). The average temperatures in the upper part of a room during flash over are 930 F to 1,300 F and oxygen levels in the room drop to 5% or less.


Nothing has been proven yet. Same stuff, over and over.



What would you say in light of what happened to Kevin Ryan, would you care to join him out on the street?

And the flooring structure was tested to a temp of 2000 degrees and didn't fail for a several (more than 4) hour test.

The ever burning jet fuel, that even NIST says was exhausted in the first few minutes. It also doesn't reach temperatures exceeding 2000 degrees.

[Large Sarge]

there were large sections of thick steel that had "Vaporized"

Steel may melt at 3000 celsius, but at what temperature does it Vaporize?

No amount Jet fuel can melt steel, let alone vaporize it...

[Dude]

there were large sections of thick steel that had "Vaporized"

Steel may melt at 3000 celsius, but at what temperature does it Vaporize?

No amount Jet fuel can melt steel, let alone vaporize it...

Show me that one. I want to know the idiot who said that.

[bigjon]

Show me that one. I want to know the idiot who said that.
ah, the impartial, ever balanced opinion's of dude on display for all to read.

The reason this is important as 911 is the seminal event that put us into a series of wars that have no end and no good conclusion for we the people.

This war serves our masters purposes, but they can't have the people wake up as they aren't that big enough or in that much control YET.

[wrs]

The NIST team only analyzed the buildings up to the point of the intial collapse. I have given you that much, basically even though there is serious doubt about the validity of the conclusions made by the NIST concerning the initial collapse, I have given them the benefit of the doubt in my analysis. What my analysis shows is that there just isn't sufficient new energy as a result of the KE of the upper 20 floors falling through 15-25 feet to collapse the next floor.

In fact, if you look at what the NIST puts forth as requirements for the initial collapse, you have to ask why if it took so much to cause the initial collapse, it takes so little energy and damage to cause the subsequent collapses.

No, Dude, if you want to understand this problem, you have to question the pancake conjecture, not the initial collapse conjecture. The pancake conjecture doesn't fit the physics of the observed collapse. Beyond the energy there is the question of how it is possible that the speed of collapse increased when we assume that the floors below the approaching mass were all stationary to begin with. When the upper floors run into the stationary lower floor, they cannot continue at the same speed, they have to stop or slow down in order to accelerate the next floor downward. The next floor cannot just attain the same speed as the falling mass that is hitting it in zero time. The laws of physics are violated when you attempt to fit the requirements of the pancake theory to the facts of the collapse. The collapsing floors accelerated and the only way that could occur is if there were no resistance below them and in fact, nothing in their way to slow them down...

[Halophyte]

@ Dude - Be careful, you're approaching G.I.M.'s Golden Calf territory.

.

[Large Sarge]

Still looking for the posts on "steel being vaporized at WTC"

I came across this interesting post, they were sinking a ship (I Believe), using cutting charges to seperate the pieces...
interesting to know that cutting charges goto 10,000+ degrees which is more than enough heat to vaporize steel

http://www.siliconinvestor.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=19655839

This one is related to using cutting charges to sink a boat:

http://www.bcdiving.com/sinking_day.htm (http://www.bcdiving.com/sinking_day.htm)

<<<There were 15 cutting charges in place, 1 at the stern and 7 along each side. The charges will heat the steel in front of them to 10000 degrees Fahrenheit and the steel vaporized and the vessel will begin to sink.>>>

This one is a pdf file (which I hate) which I though had some pretty good photos and discussion on the effects of explosives.

http://www.sainc.com/onr/detsymp/PaperSubmit/FinalManuscript/pdf/DavisHill-52.pdf (http://www.sainc.com/onr/detsymp/PaperSubmit/FinalManuscript/pdf/DavisHill-52.pdf)

<<<The forces in metals in contact with detonating explosive are often 100 to 1000 time the strength of the metal. Any imperfection in the explosive may cause tearing of the metal. Everyone who has worked with explosives has seen unexpected marks and tears in metal fragments, but apparently little has been published about such features.>>>

If I was a professional researcher, with a fat bankroll, I'd just pick up a few I-beams and half a dozen different types of explosives, then start blowing the ends off the beams to see what happens. Maybe see if a thin layer of concrete, with rocks in it, blows holes through the metal in places. Maybe deform some demolition tape with heat to see what it looks like. Burning an end off with incendiaries might be a good project also.

[Dude]

ah, the impartial, ever balanced opinion's of dude on display for all to read.

The reason this is important as 911 is the seminal event that put us into a series of wars that have no end and no good conclusion for we the people.

This war serves our masters purposes, but they can't have the people wake up as they aren't that big enough or in that much control YET.

I do have a limit as to what I accept as plausible. :wink:
</IMG>

[Large Sarge]

@Halo,

Go back to your missile/pentagone thread, you have already had your @$$ handed to you on a plate over here
@Dude
good link for the fire theory

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/mslp_i.htm

[gunner]

First post, had to throw in my 2 cents.

This is great news. It's so good to hear that the government was in no way complicit in the attacks in order to push through the new police state....what a relief. The even better news is that from now on, when they take down buildings (like in Las Vegas), all they need to do is our some jet fuel down the center and let it burn the building down in perfect symetrical fashion. Naturally the steel can then be exported to China under armed guard, which seems to be standard operating procedure these days.

Looking at WTC 7, it also seems that buildings can be "pulled" as per Larry Silverstein without any effort what-so-ever. That building wasn't even hit and it also collapsed perfectly, no doubt from some jet fuel molecules finding their way into the center structure.

Thanks for clearing this up.

[Dude]

Here

"Flames and debris exploded from the World Trade Center south tower immediately after the airplane’s impact. The black smoke indicates a fuel-rich fire."

and then Here

"To my simple mind, that would indicate that the first fire had died down, but something was still burning inefficiently, leaving soot (carbon) in the smoke. A fire with sooty smoke is either low temperature or starved for oxygen — or both."

It sucks to have so much but yet know so little...

[Large Sarge]

Here

"Flames and debris exploded from the World Trade Center south tower immediately after the airplane’s impact. The black smoke indicates a fuel-rich fire."

and then Here

"To my simple mind, that would indicate that the first fire had died down, but something was still burning inefficiently, leaving soot (carbon) in the smoke. A fire with sooty smoke is either low temperature or starved for oxygen — or both."

It sucks to have so much but yet know so little...

read this

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/mslp_i.htm

[Dude]

read this

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/mslp_i.htm


That's where I got the "simple mind" quote...

[Large Sarge]

That's where I got the "simple mind" quote...

I have no issues in helping you discover the truth, a lot of us here went through what you are going through.....

it is unnerving to discover the truth about 9/11

some folks around here are spreading "Dis-info", selecting little segments of the story, ignoring whole parts of it, stretching the facts to fit their own muddled model...

Some of our moderators have referred to these individuals as "Trolls", just seeking attention anyway they can (not enough love while growing up, I guess),

I would suggest that the trolls pick another subject to troll for....

If you live in the United States, or parts of Asia/Europe, your Freedom, and life are at stake with what is being done in the name of 9/11

so go start trolling on Global warming, or over fishing of the seas, or some other pet project...

But 9/11 is a serious enough event to deserve some honest sincere analysis, not some dis-info troll looking for a replacement to mommy, because his homelife sucked...

Respect the newbies here, learning the awful truth

[Dude]

No, Dude, if you want to understand this problem, you have to question the pancake conjecture, not the initial collapse conjecture. When the upper floors run into the stationary lower floor, they cannot continue at the same speed, they have to stop or slow down in order to accelerate the next floor downward.

Sure they can continue at the same speed. Acceleration is 9.8m/s^2. They potentially could even pick up speed. I've not seen a table of where a particular floor started and how long it took to move x meters. Based on video, it may be hard to get a truly accurate reading - and I did not review that particular element of the collapse. I suppose it has to have been looked at. Anyone got a link?

[gpond]

Acceleration is 9.8m/s^2.

I believe that is acceleration in free fall, neglecting even wind resistance. Perhaps the bottom 75% of the building might put up a little more than wind resistance, I think.

The speed of the fall is a good indicator, imho.

I don't have a link for you right now, but you will find it or someone will give it to you. Sorry I gotta run right now.

The speed of the collapse(s) is a good thing to look into.

[sheila]

Ever watch someone try to melt steel with jet fuel?

I have.

A jet dragster tours the country "melting" piles of cars with the heat from the exhaust.

What a joke.

The cars don't melt. The paint burns and smokes; but the vehicles don't melt or even buckle. And that is in an air rich environment with a jet engine that is tuned to produce maximum energy from the fuel/air feed.

How do you soften steel with kerosene that is starved for oxygen in a "non-controlled" environment?

[wrs]

What happens when a moving car runs directly into a parked car? Does the parked car start moving at the same speed as the car that hit it was at the moment of impact? Of course not, the moving car slows down and the parked car moves from rest at a much reduced speed from the one the moving car hit it at. Now that assumes two objects with the same mass but we are talking about the top 20 floors hitting the bottom 90 floors and we have already established that the top 20 floors only weigh 1% of the total building mass.

Now for the purposes of a momentum analysis, you have to consider the mass of the entire lower 90 floors up until the point that the 90th floor begins to collapse. At that point it becomes part of the mass that is falling down with the upper 20 floors to the 89th floor. However, now that upper 20 floors have dislodged the 90th floor, the 90th floor is accelerating from rest and so the combined speed of the upper 21 floors must now be reduced. You just didn't destroy that 90th floor for no energy. The energy has cost you velocity, Im sorry Dude but you need to go back and read the part in your freshman physics book where it talks about elastic and inelastic collisions and Conservation of Momentum.

Dude, here is a good link for understanding how the buildings needed to take much longer to fall assuming a pancake collapse

http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html

[Enlightened]

DUDE, fuel rich=oxygen starved. for you cannot have one, without the other. Hence a cooler fire.:adore:

[Dude]

What happens when a moving car runs directly into a parked car? Does the parked car start moving at the same speed as the car that hit it was at the moment of impact? Of course not, the moving car slows down and the parked car moves from rest at a much reduced speed from the one the moving car hit it at.

That's horizontal, not gravity included in the equation at 9.8m/s^2

we are talking about the top 20 floors hitting the bottom 90 floors and we have already established that the top 20 floors only weigh 1% of the total building mass.

Does not sound right and you made that assumption at 1%.

The energy has cost you velocity

Never said it didn't.