Do we really not want this bailout

[deadheadharry]

I told my grandfather to watch Ron Paul on Wolf Blitzer today because he has never heard of him and was interested in what he had to say. He called me after the interview and agreed with 100% of what he said. However, he started saying how if this bailout didn't happen, this week would be the start to the great depression which would make 1929 look like a dance party. He said, Harrison, How can you think it would be good to let this thing fail? I would loose all my life savings and so would millions of others. It would be absolute chaos. We need the bailout for short term relief to allow someone to hopefully change something for the long term.

Is he wrong? How can you and I sit here warm near a PC with plenty of food and say to a large portion of Americans, tough shit, the bailout is bad, no good for anyone, deal with the depression for 4 years. It will be better later. Do I make sense? I am not agreeing with my grandfather right now but is it not better to allow the system to stay alive right now and try and fix it? Would we all like to become apart of the depression ready to hit the US?

[Horn]

It's a bandaid on the jugular, best to get onto the real work now.

It's not like you have a choice now anyway when your being held hostage and being made to play financial russian roulette.

What this leads to is more time to build a meat grinder to dispose of the deadwood. Grandpa included.

[MystryBox]

Would you rather have a collapse that washes out the companies that are basically bankrupt and deal with the pain that comes from that for a few years.... or allow bankrupt institutions to continue in a zombie like state crushing the country into a depression for 15 years (like what happened in Japan) while driving the entire nation into massive debt?

And keep in mind if you pick the 15 years you risk the currency (and thus the nation) itself failing and that would be infinitely worse. Unlike Japan we are already massively in debt and the stress to the national system might just terminate the dollar. In trying to bail out their banks for the same sort of problem over a decade ago Japan went from being the nation with the highest national surplus to being the nation with the largest national debt (even bigger than ours when compared to GDP). The US isn't starting out with a surplus like Japan so if we take this route we are dead--that's the reality nobody in the Fed or Washington wants to face.

The damage is already done, there is no magic escape. The only question is do we face up to it now before it gets worse, let those that took the risks face the consequences immediately, and get to rebuilding ASAP. Or do we stretch it out, make the core problem WORSE, plunge the country further into massive debt risking the entire nation and the dollar reserve system?

The financial system is more robust than people are giving it credit for. There are many responsible financial companies out there doing fine who will take over for the failed institutions. Those that are pushing for this are the irresponsible financials that see a possible escape route for their mistakes at the expense of everyone else. Perhaps they can't imagine how the world can continue without them, but we will. And more than likely it will be a better place. But if we shift the problem onto the nation and the dollar we will bankrupt the country rather than a few bad banks.

[ipatent]

He's right, they had to do it. Even at 11.6 trillion the national debt will be much less as a percentage of GDP than many other countries like Japan.

[Horn]

He's right, they had to do it. Even at 11.6 trillion the national debt will be much less as a percentage of GDP than many other countries like Japan.

Wow, you believe in those #s?:bear_w00t::bear_w00t::bear_w00t:

Even though inflated sorely they tend to fall of a cliff in recessions.

[gpond]

"The Mother of All Frauds" (http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/587-The-Mother-Of-All-Frauds.html)

(Not the video so much, though it too is interesting. Read the actual bill and Mr. Denninger's comments on it.)

(Edit: Now I have finished watching the video and it gets better towards the end. Paulson as financial dictator, about sums up the bill. No, it shouldn't be approved.)

[deadheadharry]

MystryBox, do you think your going to be alright whether it passes or not? What happens if it doesn't pass and we have severe depression for 4 years, do you have enough supplies for 4 years and all the harsh times and people you will encounter in those years? If not, you will suffer also, not just people who put into a risky market. This would be national wide, the only people who would get by problem free, would be people living like this already. Ghettos in the Bronx, Oakland, Detroit, Atlanta and Camden would all be fine, while you and I, Mr.GIM computer people would suffer just as bad as everyone else. When you ain't got nothin, you got nothin to loose. I don't know, very bad overall.

[traderken]

I say but a Bigger bandaid on it. And A Tourniquet, if thats what it takes.

[EE_]

They should have gone in another direction of radical change.
What would you think if it was announced tomorrow, that the Federal Reserve was going to be abolished along with the IRS, we were going to return to sound money controlled by the US, a flat tax, King George is to be beheaded on Wednsday, Congress fired and jailed, all that participated in the housing and market fraud would be stripped of wealth and brought up on criminal charges.
Throw in...all businesses that use communist slave labor to profit, will be taxed heavily and considered criminal.

[deadheadharry]

I am quite sure if that was the case EE, just most people hearing of bush being beheaded would sky rocket the markets and problems would disappear overnight.

[buff01]

He's wrong. This will not stop the crash, but it will delay it and make it worse when it does happen.

[latitude22]

The bail out will ultimately destroy the dollar, leaving your grandfather with a stack of totally useless dollars.

Even if it doesn't we are going to strap every american from the day they are born with $50,000 in debt. Most individuals that are going to be paying this tab don't have $50,000 invested (per member of their family keep in mind a family of 4 owes 200k). This is vacuum up economics, every dollar at the bottom is sucked strait up to the top.

100% of americans will shoulder this burden, while a slim number will benefit from this, in a nation for the people by the people, we should do what is best for the majority, not the minority.

[Horn]

"The Mother of All Frauds" (http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/587-The-Mother-Of-All-Frauds.html)

(Not the video so much, though it too is interesting. Read the actual bill and Mr. Denninger's comments on it.)

I though it was good, like I said, if the choice is made, they say it - we live it.

What are ya gonna do? Risk your lifestyle for some political ideal, grandpa?

Life savings, HA. I plan for those yeah, really i do....:no_ma:

[Vendico]

His life savings will be wiped out one way or another. It's just a matter of how and when. If he knows this is coming, he should do something to mitigate it.

[Atahualpa]

I hope your grandfather heeds his own advice and takes quick action to protect his life savings because this bailout is his chance...if he fails to act, he can only blame himself. I suspect most people will not act if there appears to be an uptick in the market, because they want to believe the government can manage this. Crisis seems to be the only time people are willing to make drastic changes and if they think it is averted, it is business as usual.

[Homebrewer]

They are just delaying the inevitable and perpetuating a corrupt and evil system. Saving the system that keeps them wealthy and in power is their number one priority. If they must destroy the dollar to do so they will, if they must destroy the economy to do so than they will. If they wipe out your grandfather in the process, they could care less.

What needs to happen is no bailouts; no more inflation of the money supply/abolish the fed. Return to a sound commodity based money. Bring the boys home from these BS wars (also our 750 overseas bases) drastically lower taxes and cut government spending to the bone, I`m talking massive cuts. Deregulate the entire economy (just protect our freaking rights like they are supposed to) and let the free market loose. I`m talking scale the federal government back to constitutional size. Where it wouldn't matter who was running for president because they wouldn't have any control over your life anyway. This would free up so much capital, and create such a positive business climate, that the subsequent sharp downturn would be very short lived, and real prosperity like we have never seen in recent times would ensue.

What they are doing now is following the failed playbook of the great depression. We have a choice; continued debt and slavery, or freedom and prosperity.

[Horn]

if thats what it takes.

Key, who knows. I say let old Uncle Sam die.

Now's the time for funerals any way.

It's like mystrybox said, we gonna sit here and suffer with cancer like a wimp?

You either get busy livin or get busy dieing, not deciding whether or not the the noose is large enough.

[Horn]

U.S. Blues

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1joc2NiZraM

[Horn]

Look at that, Steal your Face...!!!!:D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO6P_yjKFR4

[MystryBox]

MystryBox, do you think your going to be alright whether it passes or not? What happens if it doesn't pass and we have severe depression for 4 years, do you have enough supplies for 4 years and all the harsh times and people you will encounter in those years? If not, you will suffer also, not just people who put into a risky market. This would be national wide, the only people who would get by problem free, would be people living like this already. Ghettos in the Bronx, Oakland, Detroit, Atlanta and Camden would all be fine, while you and I, Mr.GIM computer people would suffer just as bad as everyone else. When you ain't got nothin, you got nothin to loose. I don't know, very bad overall.

A few years of depression and demand deflation is NOTHING compared to the utter collapse and destitution of a currency failure.

[MystryBox]

He's right, they had to do it. Even at 11.6 trillion the national debt will be much less as a percentage of GDP than many other countries like Japan.

11.6 is only the start on the road. If Japan is the model a decade from now it will be many times that and deflation will still be persisting. And that's best case. If the currency fails there will be indescribable suffering here.

[latitude22]

A few years of depression and demand deflation is NOTHING compared to the utter collapse and destitution of a currency failure.

Exactly, since we are fairly dependent on other nations for our goods a dollar collapse would eliminate our ability to buy anything with the USD, a depression would allow our dollar to retain some value.

[cigarlover]

Like everyone already said, this is nothing more than a temporary stop gap measure. the end result will be the same. There is no fixing it unless we are ready to take on some serious pain. Does that pain start today at some point in the future. They are going to delay this at best.

I guess its also pretty obvious that this is also just a bailout for the rich corrupt people who go us into this mess in the first place. After they Pass this bill nothing will change. The corruption will continue. The only difference i it will be a free for all to see who can suck up the most cash before this collapses. Those at the top know whats coming. The only goal for the elite right no is to get their money back and get out as soon as they do. You wait and see, the ones that start getting bailed out will start retiring very quickly and never be heard from again. They will be leaving en masse because they know whats next.

I hope your grandfather sees this and understands this and will take the opportunity to prepare for this. At least he is smart enough to understand whats coming.

[deadheadharry]

So, this is his last chance to save his savings. When the bailout occurs what should he do?

[grinningdog]

They should have gone in another direction of radical change.
What would you think if it was announced tomorrow, that the Federal Reserve was going to be abolished along with the IRS, we were going to return to sound money controlled by the US, a flat tax, King George is to be beheaded on Wednsday, Congress fired and jailed, all that participated in the housing and market fraud would be stripped of wealth and brought up on criminal charges.
Throw in...all businesses that use communist slave labor to profit, will be taxed heavily and considered criminal.

You would probably be killed by the masses inside of 24 hours.

[traderken]

If I had a choice to have pain now or pain later...
I would chose later.
who wouldn't?

[luda veruda]

Do we really not want this bailout?

Do We Really Want To Kill More And More Other People, Other Nations, Legally?

Who Is Next?

Hope Not Me!

[grinningdog]

Like everyone already said, this is nothing more than a temporary stop gap measure. the end result will be the same. There is no fixing it unless we are ready to take on some serious pain. Does that pain start today at some point in the future. They are going to delay this at best.

I guess its also pretty obvious that this is also just a bailout for the rich corrupt people who go us into this mess in the first place. After they Pass this bill nothing will change. The corruption will continue. The only difference i it will be a free for all to see who can suck up the most cash before this collapses. Those at the top know whats coming. The only goal for the elite right no is to get their money back and get out as soon as they do. You wait and see, the ones that start getting bailed out will start retiring very quickly and never be heard from again. They will be leaving en masse because they know whats next.

I hope your grandfather sees this and understands this and will take the opportunity to prepare for this. At least he is smart enough to understand whats coming.

There is no way to prepare for what you all are advocating. Cold turkey would bring on the greatest civil war in history and we would all lose everything. My guess is we would get sucked up by foreign powers and truly be slaves in our own country, the ones of us still alive that is. Your gold, silver, guns and food preps would be of no use to you as they would be taken away before you knew what weas happening. There are a heck of a lot more of them than of us, by a magnitude of about 1000 to one. Go fight those oddsand see how you end up..

[Homebrewer]

I wouldn't, but with a caveat; I want a free market system to replace this centrally planned Leviathan we have now, not Leviathan two.

[latitude22]

So, this is his last chance to save his savings. When the bailout occurs what should he do?

I manage my fathers investments as well our own. He is actually the one that came to me and said "we need to get at least half of my money out of the market" I have since moved about 3/4 out of the market, not just into pm's, I have him set up with some cash and some foreign currency ( I would suggest you pick a currency in a place you might want to go to ) Keeping in mind it's possible for the cash money to get wiped out, that's what the gold and silver is for. The rest of his money is still in the market, I keep it play and try to make him enough cash to pay for his healthcare (he also has retirement and social security, so we know where those will go). As he's said to me a hundred times, if a year or two from now we're proved wrong we can get back in the market.

My wife and I have pretty much 100% out of the market, we paid off our cars, our home (the boat) and have no debt. The rest are in PM's and I have some foreign currency.

If I had a choice to have pain now or pain later...
I would chose later.
who wouldn't?

OK, how about this, if you could have your arm put in a cast now or chopped off a year down the road which would you pick. The magnitude of the disaster only increases when they crap all over our dollar.