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Portmanteau
09-21-2008, 04:52 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/09/20/scilhc120.xml


Large Hadron Collider to be turned off for two months following damage

A faulty connection between two magnets has triggered a meltdown which will delay the world’s biggest science experiment by two months, the Cern laboratory has admitted.

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The fire brigade was called to the Large Hadron Collider after the fault, which sent temperatures soaring by 100 degrees celsius in a section of the 17-mile underground circuit on the Swiss-French border.

The first protons circulated in the huge collider on September 10 before an estimated television audience of one billion, and initial progress seemed to be smooth.

Last week the Welshman in charge of the collider, Dr Lyn "the Atom" Evans, told the Telegraph that he expected to collide the first particles next week, much earlier than thought. But the breakdown, at 11am UK time on Friday morning, led to the release of a ton of helium used to cool the magnets that guide subatomic particles around the machines’s circuit. Engineers had to wait for oxygen levels to return to normal before they were able to weigh up the damage.

When they did, their verdict came as a major blow. The failure will delay the process of commissioning by at least two months, said James Gillies, spokesman for Cern, the European particle physics laboratory.

"This kind of incident was always a possibility with such a unique and demanding project, that’s why we were so tense on the 10th," commented Prof Jonathan Butterworth of University College London, the UK head of the Atlas detector, which will study collisions.

"Having seen those tantalising first signs of beam in our detectors, everyone is raring to go. So it’s really disappointing, and hard for us to keep in perspective right now. "But a delay like this in a 20-year project isn’t an utter disaster and I’m sure the team at Cern will fix it, and make it more robust as they go." The explanation for the delay lies in how the giant machine relies on both the lowest temperature and the highest vacuum to collide particles – protons – at a shade under the speed of light. Liquid helium is used to cool the LHC’s so-called "superconducting magnets".

These are built from coils of special electric cable that operates in a superconducting state, efficiently conducting electricity without resistance or loss of energy, and thus offering the ability to generate vast magnetic fields. There was a faulty connection between two magnets, explained Gillies. As a result, during a power test, the high current melted the connection and helium leaked out from the magnet, which is located under the Jura mountains, and the vacuum was lost. This change, called a quench, releases stored energy.

"It seems to be the faulty connection that quenched. It stopped superconducting, which led it to heat up and melt, which in turn seems to have caused the mechanical failure that released helium," said Gillies. The massive quench took place between two focusing "quadrupole" magnets in sector 3-4 of the accelerator, which lies between the Alice and CMS detectors, the "eyes" of the machine that study collisions. As a result of the quench, the temperature of about 100 of the magnets in the machine’s final sector rose by around 100C.

One of the eight sectors of the giant machine will now have to return to room temperature and pressure for the magnet to be repaired, or even replaced, if necessary. While a repair of the magnet itself would take no more than two days, it will take "several weeks" to warm up the sector and then another "several weeks" to cool it down again, explained Gillies.

The magnets in that sector will have to be pre-cooled to -193.2°C (80 K, or 80 deg above absolute zero ) using 10,080 tons of liquid nitrogen, before they are filled with nearly 60 tons of liquid helium to bring them down to -271.3°C (1.9 K). The setback came just a day after the LHC’s beam was restored after engineers replaced a faulty transformer that had hindered progress for much of the past week.

Prof Brian Cox of Manchester University said: "It's disappointing of course to have to wait another couple of months for the physics to begin, but with a machine as complex as the LHC these things will happen in the commissioning stage.

"When we do wonderful and difficult things at the very edge of our capability we can't expect everything to go smoothly, but this is the price we must pay to make the most profound discoveries about our Universe."

Jad Marrouche, Imperial College London, who works on the CMS detector, said: "Having been so close to taking the first data from collisions, we are all disappointed that we will have to wait just that little bit longer.

"Preparations were gathering pace, especially with the very fast progress made by the collider team of late, so it feels a bit like there has been a false start at the 100m finals."

TechGuy
09-21-2008, 05:11 PM
What is the name of the theory that states essentially:

Extremely large and complex machines have a tendency to fail in combinations which the engineers never envisioned. The more complex the system, the more likely unforeseen catastrophic failure combinations are.

This certainly applies here, and it will be interesting to see if they EVER get it to run reliably.

I wish I could find that statement, it is much more eloquent and succinct than I have written it.

AgBar
09-21-2008, 05:16 PM
This certainly applies here

Not really. Liquid Helium is notoriously difficult to work with, and the safety lockouts worked like they were supposed to.


...but that won't prevent the primates from hooting and hollering.

unkajed
09-21-2008, 05:16 PM
Weren't we building the Superconductor Super Collider at one time.

The project gets halway finished and Congress wouldn't appropriate the needed $2 Billion Dollars. {But we can give $50 Billion to Africa for HIV/Aids.

It would have been nice to have finished it because we would have had a 52 mile ring in lieu of a 17 mile ring. {I think these numbers are correct.}

We could have learned some new things from it but now other countries will.

We might as well just shoot ourselves in the head and get it over with.

Portmanteau
09-21-2008, 05:19 PM
Not really. Liquid Helium is notoriously difficult to work with, and the safety lockouts worked like they were supposed to.


...but that won't prevent the primates from hooting and hollering.

Better to be a "primate" than a mad demon hell-bent on "tempting the Lord thy God."

AgBar
09-21-2008, 05:22 PM
Better to be a "primate" than a mad demon hell-bent on "tempting the Lord thy God."

The Lord who blessed us with these wonderful minds...so that we might never use them.

Right.

TechGuy
09-21-2008, 05:22 PM
Not really. Liquid Helium is notoriously difficult to work with, and the safety lockouts worked like they were supposed to.




...but that won't prevent the primates from hooting and hollering.

The basic failure rates of machines certainly applies here. The more complex the machine, the higher and more frequent the chances of failure.

It doesnt matter that the safety lockouts worked or not, it was still a major failure.

AgBar
09-21-2008, 05:25 PM
The basic failure rates of machines certainly applies here. The more complex the machine, the higher and more frequent the chances of failure.

It doesnt matter that the safety lockouts worked or not, it was still a major failure.


Yes it does matter that the lockouts worked, according to the statement you made about complex machines failing in unexpected ways.


The most disappointing thing about this is the prospect of two more months of threads like this. I'm going to the bar. Peace.

Portmanteau
09-21-2008, 05:25 PM
The Lord who blessed us with these wonderful minds...so that we might never use them.

Right.

Stephen Hawking admits that the LHC "might" create a black hole, and presumes that "Hawking Radiation" would make it go away. If he is wrong on the latter, we're all fu*ked, eh?

People like you are reckless, experimenting on humanity without regard for the Precautionary Principle or any vestige of common sense.

Portmanteau
09-21-2008, 05:27 PM
Yes it does matter that the lockouts worked, according to the statement you made about complex machines failing in unexpected ways.


The most disappointing thing about this is the prospect of two more months of threads like this. I'm going to the bar. Peace.

I would absolutely laugh hysterically if the LHC would initiate the "grand experiment" and end up blowing itself sky-high from a non-cataclysmic explosion.

Saul Mine
09-21-2008, 06:20 PM
http://members.shaw.ca/the.toner/images/smilie/popcorn.gif

Silverbach
09-21-2008, 07:07 PM
The LHC provides a perfect answer for the so called Fermi Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox):

Any Civilization advance enough to build a LHC type of machines will soon wipe itself out.

keehah
11-17-2008, 05:25 PM
Nov.17,08: Big particle collider repairs to cost $21 million (http://www.physorg.com/news146132548.html)An electrical failure shut down the Large Hadron Collider on Sept. 19, nine days after the $10 billion machine started up with great fanfare.

The European Organization for Nuclear Research recently said that the repairs would be completed by May or early June. Spokesman James Gillies said the organization know as CERN is now estimating the restart will be at the end of June or later.

"If we can do it sooner, all well and good. But I think we can do it realistically (in) early summer," he said.

The organization has blamed the shutdown on the failure of a single, badly soldered electrical connection.

10 September 2008 The $6 billion LHC Circus (http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=gzhqr188)

sockrobot
11-17-2008, 05:41 PM
i'm glad it broke, i wasn't looking forward to getting sucked into a black hole.

keehah
11-17-2008, 06:33 PM
IMO black holes do not exist (http://www.thunderbolts.info/thunderblogs/archives/goodspeed08/070908_big_brains.htm)(for matter). Such mathmatical extremes are not required in an electric universe. However would not be suprised to see an 'event horizon' for fiat valuations. :biggrin:
http://www.holoscience.com/news/img/Black%20hole%20cartoon.jpg

DrillAndFill
11-17-2008, 07:29 PM
The LHC provides a perfect answer for the so called Fermi Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox):

Any Civilization advance enough to build a LHC type of machines will soon wipe itself out.Yes, but the post-wipeout rebuild will create a huge number of new uses for the platinum-group metals, making holders of SWC and physical palladium the dominant figures of the new order!

:wink:

hypervel
11-17-2008, 07:55 PM
Ever work on a european car? There ya go.