Gold and Taxes

[skramar]

Well, I'm new here and for some reason I've decided it would be interesting to take some money and buy a gold ounce every month, just for "safekeeping" and long term holding. Maybe even 10-20 years, just stashing the stuff in a safety deposit box. Sure is pretty. How stupid is this?
Tulving.com looks good. Why are the older ?1984 AmEagles 1oz less than the newest ones? That makes a long term hold look less attractive... is it because so many coins were minted and in circ from then?
What are the tax implications of selling by sending 5 or 10K worth of coins to a dealer, and then receiving a check? (let's assume I do it in lots of less than 10K). Does the IRS find out about this automatically, or is the onus on me to report any capital gains?
Tulving pays $10 less than the retail price of a similar coin or the exact coin, right? Could I count on selling the coins for "about" no less than - $10 of the price of an ounce of gold (spot)? How hard do you REALLY think they are to "get rid of". There needs to be a liquid market, or we're all stuck with a lot of expensive jewelry...
I'm enjoying the forum so far, thanks!

[IrishGold]

Well skramer, glad you decided to join GIM! Welcome!

It looks to me like you have already made a very good decision to buy some gold every month. Most of us here feel that you will not have to wait "10-20 years" to see the advantage of having gold.

Most here will also advise against "stashing the stuff in a safety deposit box." Those of us who think that way, feel you must have total and quick access to your physical holdings. If for some reason, the banks fail, you will not be able to get your "stash" just when you need it.

Hannes Tulving almost always has the best prices and there are no "hidden" charges with him. Shipping, handling & insurance are all included in the price he quotes to you.

You will have to ask him why there is the difference in pricing. I would assume it "supply and demand", that's what always determines price in a free market. However, you mentioned buying one ounce a month and he has a minimum order quantity.

As far as tax questions, I can not answer. I have not sold a gold or silver coin yet so I don't need to know. By the time I start selling, there will not be an IRS, at least not in it's current incarnation.

Like all investments there is no "Could I count on selling......" You buy your ticket to ride and you take your chances. If we didn't "REALLY" think it was the right thing to do, we wouldn't be here now would we?

Once again, welcome.

[lhslancers]

Sales of eagles are not reportable. 90% bags are. But I ain't tellin'.

[skramar]

[QUOTE=IrishGold]Well skramer, glad you decided to join GIM! Welcome!

If for some reason, the banks fail, you will not be able to get your "stash" just when you need it.

By the time I start selling, there will not be an IRS, at least not in it's current incarnation.

See now, that's just crazy talk! I guess you'll be handing those coins down to your heirs...
So I can't buy a coin or two at a time from Mr. Tulving?
Thanks for the replies, especially how Eagles are not reportable... this sounds so much better than putting a wad of $100's away preparing for armageddon... it will track and outpace inflation, as opposed to paper money, and it won't rot or mildew...

[lorenzo]

If for some reason, the banks fail, you will not be able to get your "stash" just when you need it.

By the time I start selling, there will not be an IRS, at least not in it's current incarnation.

See now, that's just crazy talk! I guess you'll be handing those coins down to your heirs...

Welcome to GIM skramer! What Irish is saying may sound like "crazy talk" but I assure you it is entirely possible. Why does the notion of bank failures sound crazy. A bank is just a business like any other, and can fail just as a business does. FDIC insurance is just an illusion of security. Keep in mind that historically every "fiat" currency has become worthless. For the U.S. dollar it is just a matter of time.

Some of what you read here may sound extreme and unlikely, but try and keep and open mind because I don't think anyone I've encountered here is crazy. So far just rational and reasonable thinkers here.

If you're looking to buy just one gold coin a month, my suggestion would be to find a local coin shop in your area.

[lhslancers]

To be precise about the non-reportability of us gold eagles here is the quandary. Logistically at least now any check you receive from a dealer under 10k will not trigger the banking mechanism. To be safe and it may sound paranoid the best way to do this would be to deal with multiple dealers and to have multiple checking accounts. Boy do I hate the IRS.

[lorenzo]

Reportable Sales:

Customer sales to dealers of certain precious metals exceeding specific quantities call for reporting to the IRS on 1099B forms. The 1099B forms are similar to other 1099 forms taxpayers commonly receive; the "B" means they have been issued by a business other than a financial entity.

Reportable sales (again, customer sales to dealers) apply to 1-oz Gold Maple Leafs, 1-oz Krugerrands, and 1-oz Mexican Onzas in quantities of twenty-five or more in one transaction. Reporting requirements do not apply to American Gold Eagles, no matter the quantities. Furthermore, reporting requirements do not apply to any fractional ounce gold coins.

Only one common silver product is reportable when sold: pre-1965 U.S. coins. The quantity that causes the filing of a 1099B, however, is not clear. The IRS bases its authority to require reporting on CFTC-approved contracts that call for the delivery of $10,000 face value. Consequently, many dealers do not report sales of pre-1965 U.S. coins unless the sale totals $10,000 face value; others report $1,000 sales.

http://certifiedmint.com/myths_lies.htm

[lhslancers]

Correct, but any check u deposit over 10k is known by the IRS and believe me by the time you decide to cash in there will be a law to tax the gains at a not so favorable rate. the gold lobby will not be big enough to fight it in our lifetimes.

[Ander]

What Irish is saying may sound like "crazy talk" but I assure you it is entirely possible.

Nah, theyre just crazy. :D
Just read their posts! :p


Only one common silver product is reportable when sold: pre-1965 U.S. coins.


Does that mean that if we buy silver bars (100oz/10oz) or rounds(1oz) from tulving, and later sell them, that there are no taxes? That would be very cool.

Buying 1 coin per month may be difficult if you want the best price. If you are willing to spend about 2500$ you can get a good deal from Tulving, but there are those minimum order requirements...
Still, if you can manage it (i.e. save up until you have enough for the purchase), the free shipping is nice, and you wont find a better price.


For small amounts, I would keep the metal yourself...
You never know what could happen....in 1934 Roosevelt made it illegal for U.S. citizens to own gold. You want to have it in your possession.

[IrishGold]

Reportable Sales:

Customer sales to dealers of certain precious metals exceeding specific quantities call for reporting to the IRS on 1099B forms. The 1099B forms are similar to other 1099 forms taxpayers commonly receive; the "B" means they have been issued by a business other than a financial entity.

Reportable sales (again, customer sales to dealers) apply to 1-oz Gold Maple Leafs, 1-oz Krugerrands, and 1-oz Mexican Onzas in quantities of twenty-five or more in one transaction. Reporting requirements do not apply to American Gold Eagles, no matter the quantities. Furthermore, reporting requirements do not apply to any fractional ounce gold coins.

Only one common silver product is reportable when sold: pre-1965 U.S. coins. The quantity that causes the filing of a 1099B, however, is not clear. The IRS bases its authority to require reporting on CFTC-approved contracts that call for the delivery of $10,000 face value. Consequently, many dealers do not report sales of pre-1965 U.S. coins unless the sale totals $10,000 face value; others report $1,000 sales.

http://certifiedmint.com/myths_lies.htmThis sound like all the more reason to have several dealers, especially ones that report on face value.

[skramar]

Boy are you guys smart. Lots of good information here, thanks.
Now, tell me why I can buy a coin (high quality, ie PR69 or 70) on e-bay for LESS than I can buy it from Tulving... don't these folks know about him, or can't they get rid of their metal any other way, what are your thoughts? Are we just buying and holding for armageddon, or are any of you looking at this as something "better than a money market" without the tax implications? Thanks so much again. I've got a lot of newbie ideas...

[lhslancers]

Irish I don't think that can be done. I seem to remember reading an article by Franklin Sanders of the moneychanger getting into major sh-t for not reporting sales of silver and gold. He claimed he was only exchanging dollars for silver which under the constitution was not a sales taxable trans since he was only exchanging money for money. I think at face is a no go.

[lhslancers]

Don't buy a coin from anyone who is not a reputable dealer dude. With the new grading 60 63 65 67 70 it's a big game. Spend your money wisely!!!

[IrishGold]

Not really a problem for me. Mine is for WTSHTF situations, so I will not be "selling" them, I'll be "spending" them

[lhslancers]

So I guess all of your bags of 90% are in dimes then. Can you request that from Tulving?

[IrishGold]

No actually I have some of everything. I posted here a while back about having 90% halfs, 40% halfs 90% quarters and 90% dimes to cover all the different amounts of silver. I'll find that post and reference it here in another reply.
Yes you can request a particular bag, but he may not have them available. He will however, send you an e'mail when he gets what you want.

[lorenzo]

Does that mean that if we buy silver bars (100oz/10oz) or rounds(1oz) from tulving, and later sell them, that there are no taxes? That would be very cool.

According to the IRS Code... income is deemed from any source derived. So, technically if you find a $100 bill you owe federal and state income taxes on it. Any gains that you have on precious metal sales are reportable of Schedule D - Capital Gains & Losses. It is your responsibility as a U.S. taxpayer to report your gains and losses accordingly.

But, can one get away with it? Sure. How many people do you know that will declare found money on their tax return. Precious metal transactions in small amounts are unlikely to get any attention. Here's the problem.. say when gold & silver go through the roof a guy named Joe cashes out and has a nice capital gain of $500,000 that he fails to report on his taxes. Next, Joe buys some paper investments, and deposits the rest in the bank. Let's assume the government and IRS are still intact, and later he gets audited. The IRS will look at his cash and investments of $500,000 and at the same time review previous years returns and wonder where all this money came from. He better have his records of Precious Metal transactions or the good old IRS will start to wonder. If he does have his records, they will calculate a bill for him the taxes he should have paid plus penalties and interest.

[lorenzo]

Correct, but any check u deposit over 10k is known by the IRS and believe me by the time you decide to cash in there will be a law to tax the gains at a not so favorable rate. the gold lobby will not be big enough to fight it in our lifetimes.

Not correct. Talk to anyone at your local bank to verify this information.

In dealing with a bank, any cash (ie. dead presidents) deposited over $10,000 is automatically reported to the IRS. Any money orders or cashiers checks purchased for over $3,000 are also reportable to the IRS (the teller fills out an in-house form, but I don't think this gets sent to the IRS). You can deposit a check for $50,000 and there is no IRS reporting. The IRS isn't worried about checks since they leave a nice paper trail. Lots of cash is what they are worried about. This invariably leads them to tax evaders. Don't ask me how to get around this..

[lhslancers]

I can't wait to pay those kind of capital gains fellas.

[IrishGold]

No actually I have some of everything. I posted here a while back about having 90% halfs, 40% halfs 90% quarters and 90% dimes to cover all the different amounts of silver. I'll find that post and reference it here in another reply.
Yes you can request a particular bag, but he may not have them available. He will however, send you an e'mail when he gets what you want.Okay it took me awhile to find it, but this is what I wrote in response to a question by Asimpowers
Okay Asim, if this first buy is for an insurance policy for a WTSHTF future, then I would probably suggest dimes.

There are a number of reasons for my choice of dimes first. None of the reasons are, in and of themselves, really good, it's just that overall, I feel dimes squeak out a small advantage. As an example, you can put two or three together to make twenty or thirty cents, neither quarters or halves will work for that. The same argument goes for all the amounts that are divisible by 10, but not by 25 or 50.

Based on this argument quarters would become the next choice, but here, I would say, "No, the next best choice would be 40% halves." Remember we are not talking about face value here, we are looking at silver content. A 90% dime has roughly .075 - .08 oz. of silver. The next step up is a 40% half dollar which contains about .148 - .15 oz. of silver. Next is the 90% quarter with about .177- .18 oz. of silver. Last comes the 90% half dollar which has around .357 - .36 oz. of silver.

I hope this helps.

If you want to read the whole thread, it is:
http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?p=10515&highlight=WTSHTF#post10515

[Goldhedge]

According to the IRS Code... income is deemed from any source derived. So, technically if you find a $100 bill you owe federal and state income taxes on it. Any gains that you have on precious metal sales are reportable of Schedule D - Capital Gains & Losses. It is your responsibility as a U.S. taxpayer to report your gains and losses accordingly.


BUT if you take the time to read the code, "INCOME" is specifically defined as "PROFIT GAINED FROM CAPITAL". Your labor is not CAPITAL nor is it PROFIT!

I think if you spend some time at Larken Rose's website larken@taxableincome.net you will discover that the IRS is nothing more than the collection arm for the Private company known as the FEDERAL RESERVE! No more Federal than FedEX! The Constitution states Congress shall lay no taxes nor pass a law taxing the people (Ask BB about the exact wording - he is a master at this) and until they trash the Constitution they are not allowed to tax income of citizens.

Why do we pay taxes then? Cause we are as dumb as they come and we don't challenge authority. Everyone has been duped by strong arm tactics of the IRS mafia thugs and the court system. It all comes down to contract law and again BB can hook you up with a link (I'm not at my office cpu). You have unwittingly agreed to contract with the Federal Reserve corporation to be taxed. Remember paying taxes is VOLUNTARY, it even says so in the IRS manual.

Did you also know that there is NO LAW that says you must have a SSN? You "voluntarily" ask for an SSN and that is how you "volunteer" to pay taxes. Now how is it that you can't work or get a driver's license without an SSN? My original SSN states clearly on the bottom NOT TO BE USED FOR IDENTIFICATION, well that is how they got the population to USE an SSN. Then they went ahead and used it as IDENTIFICATON! New issue SSN's or duplicates have that phrase removed. Now if that isn't a bait and switch I don't know what is.

I suggest everyone download Larkin's research. It's free. Read it and prove it to yourself. The only power the IRS has is 'contract law'. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - it isn't their fault you don't know when you enter into a contract!! The more folks get educated about the IRS fraud the harder it will be for them to perpetuate the fraud, and Irish is right: the IRS may no longer exist.

Another great book and a good place to start is "The Creature From Jekyll Island", by G. Edward Griffin. You'll learn all about the nonFederal Reserve. I too want the world, plus 5 percent.

Cheers

Goldhedge :note:

[lorenzo]

I think if you spend some time at Larken Rose's website larken@taxableincome.net you will discover that the IRS is nothing more than the collection arm for the Private company known as the FEDERAL RESERVE! No more Federal than FedEX! The Constitution states Congress shall lay no taxes nor pass a law taxing the people (Ask BB about the exact wording - he is a master at this) and until they trash the Constitution they are not allowed to tax income of citizens.

So, are you saying that you don't pay income taxes? If so I want to hear about it. Don't worry I don't work for the IRS. :)

The Federal Reserve may be nothing more than a private bank, but we still accept FRN's (ie. dollars). Additionally, the IRS may be nothing more than a private collection arm for the Federal Reserve, but we still pay our taxes.

To those that have the "balls" to not pay income taxes, I salute you and envy you. From everything I have seen, "tax protesters" always lose in the U.S. tax courts and get thrown in jail. There are always those that allege they pay no income taxes and get away with it, but I'm not taking any chances until I see a legal precedent.

[HistoryStudent]

I have a thought for you. The US Gold-Eagle has $50 written on it for so-called nuismatic/legal tender. How about in a few years you offer a fellow, say, 20 of them for a WHOLE apartment house?

20 X $50 = $1,000 face value. Just playing with the US legal tender laws.

[Outrider]

So, are you saying that you don't pay income taxes? If so I want to hear about it. Don't worry I don't work for the IRS. :)

The Federal Reserve may be nothing more than a private bank, but we still accept FRN's (ie. dollars). Additionally, the IRS may be nothing more than a private collection arm for the Federal Reserve, but we still pay our taxes.

To those that have the "balls" to not pay income taxes, I salute you and envy you. From everything I have seen, "tax protesters" always lose in the U.S. tax courts and get thrown in jail. There are always those that allege they pay no income taxes and get away with it, but I'm not taking any chances until I see a legal precedent.
Let's think carefully and clearly here. We don't live under laws!!! We live under men - Judges!! The "law" means what any given judge SAYS it means at any given time. Don't like it? Find a higher court if you can. The "law" is a piece of toilet paper just like the FRN. The Supremes use it every day they are in session.

It does not matter what is in black and white any more. Just what the judge says he sees there. Period!

Never think you can pin'em to the wall with the law. That's a big laugh for them. It's like the house in the casino. It's run by them for them to skin you.
They created the lottery as a tax on the stupid, after all.

The only way to beat them is to "own" nothing. Be nobody. Invisible. Below the radar. Get married to a wide-hipped down home woman and have a lot of kids. No taxes and if you treat them right, as you should, they love you and are the very best retirement a man could hope for.

But TPTB want you to grab for the carrot, the brass ring out in front of your nose so they can "harvest" you like a hog. The American Dream my behind.
Sleep on . . .

Did I sound too harsh or bitter???? Or happy to be out of sight and greatly loved? :getdown: You decide.

Outrider

[lorenzo]

The only way to beat them is to "own" nothing. Be nobody. Invisible. Below the radar. Get married to a wide-hipped down home woman and have a lot of kids. No taxes and if you treat them right, as you should, they love you and are the very best retirement a man could hope for.

But TPTB want you to grab for the carrot, the brass ring out in front of your nose so they can "harvest" you like a hog. The American Dream my behind.
Sleep on . . .Outrider


Thats about right. The only way to beat them is to stay out of the system. Learn to live off the land, and barter for FRN's or other things you need. There was a thread on this topic a while back. As for me, I am happily plugged into the matrix er.. system.

[lorenzo]

I have a thought for you. The US Gold-Eagle has $50 written on it for so-called nuismatic/legal tender. How about in a few years you offer a fellow, say, 20 of them for a WHOLE apartment house?

20 X $50 = $1,000 face value. Just playing with the US legal tender laws.

If you wish to play by the "rules", you would have a large capital gain to report on Schedule D - Form 1040. The capital gain would be the cost of the apartment building less the original cost of the 20 coins. The $50 face value is irrelevant.

If you wish to get creative, you can choose not to report anything to the IRS. Just make the exchange, and take title to the property. If you get audited you would have a problem though.

Best way in your scenario is just to use the gold coins to either pay rent, or purchase the property with a traditional mortgage and use the coins to make the mortgage payments.

Just my 2 cents.

[IrishGold]

Why not take it in the other direction?
Do you have a home you are contemplating selling?
Let's say you bought it 10 years ago for $150,000 and it will bring $300,000 on the market right now. Offer to sell it for $37,500..................payable in $50 Gold Eagles.
No capital gains here Mr. IRS man, I lost money!

[lorenzo]

You don't even have to go through all that :D. According to the IRS...

If you sold your main home, you may be able to exclude up to $250,000 of gain ($500,000 for married taxpayers filing jointly) from your federal tax return, according to the IRS. This exclusion is allowed each time that you sell your main home, but generally no more frequently than once every two years.

To be eligible for this exclusion, your home must have been owned by you and used as your main home for a period of at least two out of the five years prior to its sale. You also must not have excluded gain on another home sold during the two years before the current sale.

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=106951,00.html

:yippee:

[marcmalano]

BUT if you take the time to read the code, "INCOME" is specifically defined as "PROFIT GAINED FROM CAPITAL". Your labor is not CAPITAL nor is it PROFIT!

I think if you spend some time at Larken Rose's website larken@taxableincome.net you will discover that the IRS is nothing more than the collection arm for the Private company known as the FEDERAL RESERVE! No more Federal than FedEX! The Constitution states Congress shall lay no taxes nor pass a law taxing the people (Ask BB about the exact wording - he is a master at this) and until they trash the Constitution they are not allowed to tax income of citizens.

Why do we pay taxes then? Cause we are as dumb as they come and we don't challenge authority. Everyone has been duped by strong arm tactics of the IRS mafia thugs and the court system. It all comes down to contract law and again BB can hook you up with a link (I'm not at my office cpu). You have unwittingly agreed to contract with the Federal Reserve corporation to be taxed. Remember paying taxes is VOLUNTARY, it even says so in the IRS manual.

Did you also know that there is NO LAW that says you must have a SSN? You "voluntarily" ask for an SSN and that is how you "volunteer" to pay taxes. Now how is it that you can't work or get a driver's license without an SSN? My original SSN states clearly on the bottom NOT TO BE USED FOR IDENTIFICATION, well that is how they got the population to USE an SSN. Then they went ahead and used it as IDENTIFICATON! New issue SSN's or duplicates have that phrase removed. Now if that isn't a bait and switch I don't know what is.

I suggest everyone download Larkin's research. It's free. Read it and prove it to yourself. The only power the IRS has is 'contract law'. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - it isn't their fault you don't know when you enter into a contract!! The more folks get educated about the IRS fraud the harder it will be for them to perpetuate the fraud, and Irish is right: the IRS may no longer exist.

Another great book and a good place to start is "The Creature From Jekyll Island", by G. Edward Griffin. You'll learn all about the nonFederal Reserve. I too want the world, plus 5 percent.

Cheers

Goldhedge :note:
It is amazing how a fiat currency backed by nothing can continue to function for so long. We may as well be using plastic beads.

How can the IRS justify taxing gains on gold when it isn't so much that gold is gaining value but rather the dollar is losing value because the government thinks that a weaker dollar will help exports...as if we still make anything anymore. The only thing we are good at exporting these days are jobs (including high paying tech jobs).

It is sad to see how easily the government and IRS can ignore the Constitution and get away with it. Maybe the Class Action Lawsuit filed by www.givemeliberty.org (http://www.givemeliberty.org/) to determine if citizens really have a 1st Amendment right to petition their government for redress of grievances AND withhold their money WITHOUT retaliation in order to compel a response to the legality of the income tax will manage to succeed where others have failed. Unfortunately the court system doesn't seem to be interested in defending the Constitution anymore. One still can hope though.

:adore: :evil: IRS

[IrishGold]

How can the IRS justify taxing ..........plug in any word at this point! They can not justify anything they currently do!