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Halophyte
10-08-2006, 02:47 PM
The common man never created the U.S. Constitution
nor was the Bill of Rights for him.

Since 1990 I have been preaching that the Constitution was never mine and the People in "We the People" was not the common man on the street, but rather the aristocracy of Hamilton, Jefferson, Adams, Washington, Jay and others. Lysander Spooner is another man in the 1800's that had the same sentiments. He too showed that the constitution was not only NOT a contract with the people, but that none of the signers signed it with any conviction and it is evident that they only signed in a witness capacity, check it out for yourself by looking at how they signed the constitution and bound no one unless they agreed to the terms in the alleged contract called a constitution that they drafted.

The following is from the Cases in Constitutional law. I had used the John Barron case to prove my point that the common man on the street had nothing to do with creating the constitution quite a few years back.. The majority of the people put the constitution even before the word of the LORD ALMIGHTY, because they revere it so much they will say they will defend it. What they do not know is that the constitution gives unlimited power to those men who assume the power and jurisdiction over them and offers them no protection whatsoever. The hoopla of the government spin doctors have led the common man to believe the common man has protections built in to protect him. Nothing could be further from the truth. The lie is so big that people, even when shown, still revert back to the constitution as if it were GOD himself. It is only because of the teachings they had that was passed down from generation to generation. Just like the little boy believes in the big lie you tell him for the fist 5 to 7 years of his life that there is a Santa, Tooth fairy and Easter bunny. Small lies but still lies. He won't believe there is none of the above when you tell him. It is more serious in real life, the lies that have been fed your relatives all the way back to 1776, and now when we researchers tell you the truth, you still want to believe in the Big Lie, just like the 5 year old wants to believe in Santa. I want to point out that what you read is not one word of mine, except where I make comments. I will bold those words that will draw your attention and make you see the light that I saw over 10 years ago. It is a slow process, to come to the realization that in order to control the people, they must be made to believe in (government) lies. Please note how the courts, after the John Barron case, have changed the meaning so that they can start changing what the genesis of the constitution was all about. They had to do this to keep the people 10 steps behind in figuring out what Patrick Henry warned, that the constitution was a document to enslave the people of America. So I start with the book, which is the same book I used describing the 16th Amendment, Direct and Indirect taxes. Remember it is what the enemy (government State and Federal) says that counts. Sometimes they tell us things in court cases that go right over our heads. They can't say that we were not warned.

Chapter 16
The Nationalization of the Bill of Rights
Early Efforts To Extend the Bill of Rights to the States

BARRON v. BALTIMORE
7 Peters 243; 8 L. Ed. 672 (1833)

One of the bitter criticisms urged against our federal Constitution as it came from the hands of the Convention was that it contained no bill of rights. It was feared that without specific guarantees the civil rights and liberties of the people and the states would be at the mercy of the proposed national government. Ratification was secured, but with a tacit understanding that a bill of rights should promptly be added which should restrict the national government in behalf of individual liberty. That the early statesmen thought of a federal bill of rights only in terms of restrictions on national power is emphasized by Hamilton's ingenious argument in The Federalist (No. 84) that since the proposed central government was one which possessed only the powers delegated to it, it would be not only unnecessary but unwise to prohibit it from doing things which were clearly outside the scope of its delegated authority.

When the First Congress convened, the House of Representatives proposed seventeen amendments in the nature of a bill of rights. One of these, the fourteenth, provided that "no state should infringe the right of trial by jury in criminal cases, nor the rights of conscience, nor the freedom of speech or of the press. This amendment, which was the only one restricting the powers of the states, was rejected by the Senate. The substance of the others was consolidated into twelve amendments, ten of which were finally ratified by the states.

The First Amendment indicates by its own language that it is directed only against the federal government, for it begins, "Congress shall make no law .... " The other amendments are couched in terms of general prohibition; and in spite of the perfectly clear historical evidence as to the intention of those who framed them, it came to be argued that these guarantees of civil liberty ought to be construed as restrictions upon state and federal governments alike. Whether this view is correct is the issue involved in Barron v. Baltimore, the last constitutional decision in which Mr. Chief Justice Marshall participated.

While paving its streets, the city of Baltimore had diverted from their natural courses certain streams, with the result that sand and gravel were deposited near Barron's wharf. The wharf, which had previously enjoyed the deepest water in the harbor, was rendered practically useless, for the deposits prevented the approach of vessels. A verdict of $4500 for Barron had been reversed by the state court of appeals, and a writ of error was taken to the Supreme Court of the United States. It was alleged by Barron that this action upon the part of the city constituted a violation of that clause of the Fifth Amendment which forbids taking private property for public use without just compensation. He insisted that this amendment, being a guarantee in behalf of individual liberty, ought to be construed to restrain the states as well as the national government.

The decision in Barron v. Baltimore has left an indelible impression on the development of civil rights in this country. While today Barron would have brought his case under the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment (which does restrict the states), the process of change by which parts of the Bill of Rights have come to be applicable to the states has been slow, uncertain, and confusing. While most rights in the Bill of Rights now do apply to the states, they do so only because they are essential to due process of law. The ruling in the present case that the Bill of Rights does not apply directly to the states has never been overruled.

Mr. Chief Justice Marshall delivered the opinion of the court:

The judgment brought up by this writ of error having been rendered by the court of a State, this tribunal can exercise no jurisdiction over it unless it be shown to come within the provisions of the twenty-fifth section of the Judicial Act.

The plaintiff in error contends that it comes within that clause in the fifth amendment to the Constitution which inhibits the taking of private property for public use without just compensation. He insists that this amendment, being in favor of the liberty of the citizen, ought to be so construed as to restrain the legislative power of a State, as well as that of the United States. If this proposition be untrue, the court can take no jurisdiction of the cause.

The question thus presented is, we think, of great importance, but not of much difficulty.

The Constitution was ordained and established by the people of the United States for themselves, for their own government, and not for the of the individual States. Each State established a constitution for itself, and in that constitution provided such limitations and restrictions on the powers of its particular government as its judgment dictated. . . . .

But it is universally understood, it is a part of the history of the day, that the great revolution which established the Constitution of the United States was not effected without immense opposition. Serious fears were extensively entertained that those powers which the patriot statesmen who then watched over the interests of our country, deemed essential to union, and to the attainment of those invaluable objects for which union was sought, might be exercised in a manner dangerous to liberty. In almost every convention by which the Constitution was adopted, amendments to guard against the abuse of power were recommended. These amendments demanded security against the apprehended encroachments of the general government--not against those of the local governments.

In compliance with a sentiment thus generally expressed, to quiet fears thus extensively entertained, amendments were proposed by the required majority in Congress, and adopted by the States. These amendments contain no expression indicating an intention to apply them to the State governments. This court cannot so apply them.

We are of opinion that the provision in the fifth amendment to the Constitution, declaring that private property shall not be taken for public use without just compensation, is intended solely as a limitation on the exercise of power by the government of the United States, and is not applicable to the legislation of the States. We are therefore of opinion that there is no repugnancy between the several acts of the General Assembly of Maryland, given in evidence by the defendants at the trial of this cause in the court of that State, and the Constitution of the United States.

This court, therefore, has no jurisdiction of the cause, and [it] is dismissed.

Informer's Comment: Ever wonder why the federal judges say, "don't bring the constitution in my court?" Now you know why. So now we see the progression to hide this fact from the people in the states, who had no say whatsoever in drafting and creating the U.S. Constitution, by the courts dictating change by their decisions. Remember also, that the constitution of each of the states was never created or ratified by the common man either, for the same reasons the U. S. Constitution was never drafted nor ratified by the common man. So why do you all claim it is your constitution and Bill of Rights when it clearly is stated by the court that it is not?

In the next case please see if you can see RIGHTS mentioned. First the government granted "privileges" and after they were granted, they became rights under statute, only at the whim of the Congress. Today that is called "statutory rights" and NOT God given rights. That is why it was always a "privilege" to vote, because of the original restrictions, having property and money was the only criteria allowing those to vote. History has shown this to be so. That left the common man, who had no property or money in excess of 100 dollars silver, who you believe to have drafted both the Constitution and Bill of Rights, could not vote.

THE SLAUGHTER-HOUSE CASES 16 Wallace 36; 21 L. Ed. 394 (1873)

In the years prior to the Civil War the individual relied almost entirely on the constitution of his state for the protection of his rights and liberties. The Supreme Court had ruled in Barron v. Baltimore (1833) that the Bill of Rights limited only the national government, and with the exception of the Alien and Sedition Acts, Congress had passed no law which anyone seriously believed had violated these limitations. The ordinary citizen looked to the state legislature to protect his person and property from private interference, and to the state bill of rights for protection against injury by his state government. Certainly he did not, and could not, expect the national government to step in and protect him either from his neighbor or from his state government.

At the close of the Civil War it seemed clear that without the intervention of the federal government the Southern states would by legislative restrictions strip the newly freed Negro of most of the ordinary rights and immunities of free citizens. To place the civil rights of the Negro upon a firm basis Congress proposed the Fourteenth Amendment authorizing the national government to step in and protect the Negro against actions by his own state government. The states were forbidden to take life, liberty, or property without due process of law, or to deny anyone the equal protection of the laws. The amendment defined United States citizenship in terms which included the Negro, and the states were forbidden to make laws abridging the privileges and immunities of that citizenship.

Exactly what the framers of the amendment intended to include in the phrase "privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States" is not altogether clear, and there is evidence to indicate that it was not clear even to the framers. Some apparently believed that the clause would include within its protection those basic rights enjoyed by all persons--such as the right to marry, to own property, to do business, and to move about freely. Others thought that it would include all or part of the protections listed in the federal Bill of Rights. In the Slaughter-House Cases the Court held that the privileges and immunities clause protected none of these rights, and from this decision the Court has never retreated.

The Slaughter-House Cases were the first cases brought under the Fourteenth Amendment, and they had nothing whatever to do with the rights of freedmen. The case arose on the following facts: the Reconstruction or "carpetbag,' government in Louisiana, unquestionably under corrupt influence, had granted a monopoly of the slaughterhouse business to a single concern, thus preventing over one thousand other persons and firms from continuing in that business. The validity of the law was attacked under the Fourteenth Amendment. The case was argued before the Supreme Court twice and was decided by a majority of five to four.

The importance of the case can hardly be overestimated. By distinguishing between state citizenship and national citizenship, and by emphasizing that the rights and privileges of federal citizenship do not include the protection of ordinary civil liberties such as freedom of speech and press, religion, etc., but only the privileges which one enjoys by virtue of his federal citizenship, the Court averted, for the time being at least, the revolution in our constitutional system apparently intended by the framers of the amendment and reserved to the states the responsibility for protecting civil rights generally. Nor has the Court been willing to expand the scope of the privileges and immunities clause beyond this early, limited interpretation. Five years before the Slaughter-House Cases the Supreme Court had held void, in Crandall v. Nevada (1868), a state tax on transporting persons out of the state, on the ground that such a tax would obstruct the citizen in his inherent federal right to come to the seat of his government. Two members of the Court, while concurring in the judgment, held the tax to be a violation of the commerce clause. In his opinion in the Slaughter-House Cases, Mr. Justice Miller cites this freedom of movement as an example of the privileges and immunities of United States citizens, and in 1941 in Edwards v. California, four members of the Court strongly urged that the California "anti-Okie" law should be held invalid on this ground. The majority had rested their decision, as had the minority in the Crandall case, upon the commerce power.

Had the Slaughter-House Cases been decided 25 years later, the Louisiana statute would in all probability have been invalidated as a deprivation of liberty and property without due process of law and a denial of the equal protection of the laws. But the majority of the Court disposed rather summarily of these clauses by holding in substance that the due process of law clause was not a limitation on the state's police power and that the equal protection of the laws clause, equally inapplicable, would probably never be invoked except for the protection of the Negro. It is important to bear in mind that Mr. Justice Miller's comments about the due process and equal protection clauses no longer state the law. The Court has long since given those clauses the broadest possible applicability. There have, in fact, been more cases interpreting the Fourteenth Amendment than on any other phase of constitutional law.

It looked for a time (1935-1940) as though the Court might also broaden the scope and applicability of the privileges and immunities clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. In Colgate v. Harvey (1935) the Court held void a provision of a Vermont income tax law which taxed income from money loaned outside the state at a higher rate than that loaned inside the state. Besides denying the equal protection of the laws, this act was held to abridge the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States. The right to carry on business freely across state lines was declared to be a privilege or immunity of federal citizenship, a doctrine sharply differing from the rule of Slaughter-House Cases. In 1939, in Hague v. CIO, involving the validity under the Fourteenth Amendment of various repressions of free speech, assembly, etc., in Jersey City, two justices of the Supreme Court from the majority held that the right of citizens to assemble and discuss their rights under the National Labor Relations Act was a privilege or immunity of citizens of the United States within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. There was also speculation as to whether protection against unreasonable searches and seizures was also a privilege and immunity of federal citizenship, but no decision was made on that point. There was sharp dissent in both cases against this tendency to enlarge the scope of the privileges and immunities clause; and in Madden v. Kentucky (1940), in a case similar to Colgate v. Harvey, the Court specifically overruled that case and returned to the timeworn narrow construction of the privileges and immunities clause embodied in the Slaughter-House Cases.

Mr. Justice Miller delivered the opinion of the Court, saying in part:

The plaintiffs in error accepting this issue, allege that the statute is a violation of the Constitution of the United States in these several particulars:

Informer's comment: The Plaintiffs lost because the constitution of the United States did not apply to them and the amendments did not apply to the states. The part of the decision of Miller states, "But with the exception of these and a few other restrictions, the entire domain of the privileges and immunities of citizens of the states, as above defined, lay within the constitutional and legislative power of the states, AND WITHOUT that of the federal government." Emphasis mine.

Now I hope all you understand that the Bill of Rights, as originally adopted, DID NOT belong to the people that lived in the states and they did not, contrary to the big lie they are led to believe, create the Bill of Rights, just like they did not create the Constitutions of the United States, much less the state constitution where they live. The common man never ratified any constitution.

Now in Nebbia v New York 291 U.S. 502, Justice Roberts stated, "So far as the requirement of due process is concerned, and in the absence of other constitution restriction, a state is free to adopt whatever economic policy may reasonably be deemed to promote public welfare, and to enforce that policy by legislation adopted to its purpose. The courts are without authority either to declare such policy, or, when it is declared by the legislature, to override it. . . .

Informer's Comment: People, "public welfare" means government welfare, NOT your welfare. How many believe when they say "public," that it means you and me? Probably 95 percent of you think this way. Not so, the government is termed public. Ever hear the term "public office?" That is easy to understand it means government office. Why is it so difficult to understand the "public welfare clause "means government welfare and not your welfare? Therefore, as stated by the Nebbia court, the federal courts are without authority to override the state's domain.

BUT, the problem has completely gone away and with the advent of the War Powers the Congress and the President now control all states and actually throws out all these court arguments because "Public Policy" (Government AKA Congress's Policy) over rules all law except what they drafted after the Reconstruction Acts. The enemy, that is the common man, has no rights, State or otherwise under emergency power control. And, even if we were to revert back to peace time and be under no emergency rule, the Constitution would still not protect you nor the Bill of Rights against State control. Now that blows the 2nd Amendment right out of the water because it only applies to the People of the United States and NOT to the people of the States. Go an Pull the entire John Barron case to see where they addressed every item in the Bill of Rights and how they do not pertain to the people in the states, with the exception of one.

Have a nice day.

Sincerely, The Informer

<SLV>
10-08-2006, 04:06 PM
I'm beginning to think of our foundational documents as "Windows" version 1776 with several billion patches over the last couple centuries. Folks, we are starting to see regular system crashes. In a couple years there will be calls for an operating system "reinstall", and we won't get the free open-source Linux, instead we will get something as opressive as IBM's OS-2.

Enlightened
10-09-2006, 06:09 PM
At the very least, the constitution and bill of rights was written by "white men" for "white men".

the 14th amendment IMHO did not grant equal rights to the slaves, it brought the common white man down to the slaves level.

At any rate, we are and have always been screwed, if we allow it.

No man can give me, nor take from me, if I not allow it.

Worldmariner
10-10-2006, 07:32 AM
At the very least, the constitution and bill of rights was written by "white men" for "white men".

the 14th amendment IMHO did not grant equal rights to the slaves, it brought the common white man down to the slaves level.

At any rate, we are and have always been screwed, if we allow it.

No man can give me, nor take from me, if I not allow it.

Bear in mind... each STATE has also a constitution, AND a bill of rights, almost identicle to the Federal BOR. SO... the common swine does not have protection under the FED BOR, but MAY depending of the STATE BOR.

Large Sarge
10-10-2006, 08:03 AM
a few points of reference.

1. one of the big problems with the constitution was that they made no mention of punishing violators of the constitution. So while it is written with a lot of wisdom, thought and vision, it has no bite.

2. regarding slavery, the main problem IMO was that most people did not look at African-Americans as humans, "We the people" did not include blacks. the same could be said for native americans.


power seekers are a different breed of animal than most folks, look at Dubya for example, killing 100,000+ civilians (not to mention DU casualties for a billion years), torture, wiretapping, etc etc

most folks would consider that person a tyrant

he has shredded the constitution, because it had no repercussions for violators.

most power seekers are corrupt by nature, power attracts the corrupt.

we need to put some bite into the constitution, send them to prision for violating it.

until you put some teeth into the constitution, nothing much will change, an honest schoolboy (like Ron Paul or Michael Badnarik), will never get elected (although I keep voting for them anyhow)

JMO

Carl
10-11-2006, 04:45 PM
Informer's comment: The Plaintiffs lost because the constitution of the United States did not apply to them and the amendments did not apply to the states. The part of the decision of Miller states, "But with the exception of these and a few other restrictions, the entire domain of the privileges and immunities of citizens of the states, as above defined, lay within the constitutional and legislative power of the states, AND WITHOUT that of the federal government."

That is as it should be.

I think that Mr. Halophyte is set upon a wild goose chase for villains and crimes that are a product of an overactive imagination and a profound unfamiliarity with the Constitution, history and the philosophical underpinnings of liberty that culminated in the creation of one of the greatest documents that formed a representative republican government in the history of man. No insult intended, just a statement of apparent fact.

The whole thesis of Mr. Halophyte's argument, assuming that the argument is indeed Mr. Halophyte's, is based upon the premise of an oppressed and fictitious character referred to as the "common man".

First, let us dispel the myth of the common man as a victim of an elaborate hoax and even his existence within the context as provided by Mr. Halophyte.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. - That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

As we can see from the Declaration of Independence, the groundwork upon which the foundations of the Constitution were built, the proposition that all men are created equal, if all men are created equal then we are all common men, from the President of the United States to the common laborer, equal one and all. We don't bow, we don't scrape and we don't pay homage to any living man as being superior to any other no matter their working station in life as we are all created equal, this means that Hamilton, Jefferson, Adams, Washington, Jay and the others were all common men who undertook an uncommon task, that of forging a nation.

See also: John Locke (http://www.iep.utm.edu/l/locke.htm)


To base an argument upon the notion that “The common man never created the U.S. Constitution” is on its face, a meaningless postulation.

As for Lysander Spooner, he was a lone antagonist and contrarian who mostly riled against demons of his own creation and hardly representative of anyone in the 1800’s, other than himself, a white Jessie Jackson of his time who found favor with abolitionists.

The rest of Mr. Halophyte's and Mr. Informer's arguments are just exercises in historically disjointed misconceptions that culminate in a modern political dilemma that have no connection to the original argument.

.

keehah
10-11-2006, 06:05 PM
Ad hominem I think that Mr. Halophyte is set upon a wild goose chase for villains and crimes that are a product of an overactive imagination and a profound unfamiliarity........

Straw man let us dispel the myth of the common man as a victim of an elaborate hoax

Non sequitur if all men are created equal then we are all common men

Definitions of postulation on the Web: (logic) a declaration of something self-evident; something that can be assumed as the basis for argument
To base an argument upon the notion that "The common man never created the U.S. Constitution" is on its face, a meaningless postulation. A valid statement if you agree with the post!

keehah
10-11-2006, 06:16 PM
The era of abundance has ended, the era of scarcity is arriving.
For guiding principles of the USA,
the era of Locke has ended, the era of Hobbes has returned.

Hobbes (http://www.iep.utm.edu/h/hobmoral.htm)
Locke versus Hobbes
http://www.jim.com/hobbes.htm

The Social Contract
Locke- We give up our right to ourselves exact retribution for crimes in return for impartial justice backed by overwhelming force. We retain the right to life and liberty, and gain the right to just, impartial protection of our property
Hobbes- If you shut up and do as you are told, you have the right not to be killed.

Violation of the social contract
L- If a ruler seeks absolute power, if he acts both as judge and participant in disputes, he puts himself in a state of war with his subjects and we have the right and the duty to kill such rulers and their servants.
H-No right to rebel. The ruler's will defines good and evil for his subjects. The King can do no wrong, because lawful and unlawful, good and evil, are merely commands, merely the will of the ruler.

Civil Society
L- Civil society precedes the state, both morally and historically. Society creates order and grants the state legitimacy.
H- Civil society is the application of force by the state to uphold contracts and so forth. Civil society is a creation of the state. What most modern people would call civil society is "jostling", pointless conflict and pursuit of selfish ends that a good government should suppress.

Rights
L- Men have rights by their nature
H- You conceded your rights to the government, in return for your life

Role of the State
L- The only important role of the state is to ensure that justice is seen to be done
H- Whatever the state does is just by definition. All of society is a direct creation of the state, and a reflection of the will of the ruler.

Authorized use of force
L- Authorization is meaningless, except that the authorization gives us reason to believe that the use of force is just. If authorization does not give us such confidence, perhaps because the state itself is a party to the dispute, or because of past lawless acts and abuses by the state, then we are back in a state of nature.
H- The concept of just use of force is meaningless or cannot be known. Just use of force is whatever force is authorized

Carl
10-11-2006, 06:39 PM
Ad hominem I think that Mr. Halophyte is set upon a wild goose chase for villains and crimes that are a product of an overactive imagination and a profound unfamiliarity........
Ad hominem (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html)

Not an ad hominem.

Straw manlet us dispel the myth of the common man as a victim of an elaborate hoax The straw man was created by Mr. Halophyte, I dispelled it.

Non sequitur if all men are created equal then we are all common men the non sequitur was created by you editing my post.

Definitions of postulation on the Web: (logic) a declaration of something self-evident; something that can be assumed as the basis for argument
To base an argument upon the notion that "The common man never created the U.S. Constitution" is on its face, a meaningless postulation. A valid statement only if you agree with the post! Agreement is irrelevant and has no effect upon validity of statement.

Postulate:
1 : DEMAND (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/demand), CLAIM (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/claim)
2 a : to assume or claim as true, existent, or necessary : depend upon or start from the postulate of b : to assume as a postulate or axiom (as in logic or mathematics)
- pos·tu·la·tion http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?postul04.wav=postulation')) /"päs-ch&-'lA-sh&n/ noun
- pos·tu·la·tion·al http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?postul05.wav=postulational')) /-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective

Veritas
10-17-2006, 03:39 AM
That is as it should be.

I think that Mr. Halophyte is set upon a wild goose chase for villains and crimes that are a product of an overactive imagination and a profound unfamiliarity with the Constitution, history and the philosophical underpinnings of liberty that culminated in the creation of one of the greatest documents that formed a representative republican government in the history of man. No insult intended, just a statement of apparent fact.

A statement of "apparent fact" can be supported; you are simply stating your opinion.

The whole thesis of Mr. Halophyte's argument, assuming that the argument is indeed Mr. Halophyte's, is based upon the premise of an oppressed and fictitious character referred to as the "common man".

First, let us dispel the myth of the common man as a victim of an elaborate hoax and even his existence within the context as provided by Mr. Halophyte.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. - That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

As we can see from the Declaration of Independence, the groundwork upon which the foundations of the Constitution were built, the proposition that all men are created equal, if all men are created equal then we are all common men, from the President of the United States to the common laborer, equal one and all. We don't bow, we don't scrape and we don't pay homage to any living man as being superior to any other no matter their working station in life as we are all created equal, this means that Hamilton, Jefferson, Adams, Washington, Jay and the others were all common men who undertook an uncommon task, that of forging a nation.

The Declaration states that all men are created equal. One must not take this to assume that all men remain equal after their creation. Furthermore, if the founders truely believed that all men are equal, they would not have kept slaves. They also would have allowed "common men" to vote. They did not. The consent of the governed was not derived from the common men. It was derived from the rich, white, land-owning men over the age of 21.

Large Sarge
10-17-2006, 06:05 AM
The Declaration states that all men are created equal. One must not take this to assume that all men remain equal after their creation. Furthermore, if the founders truely believed that all men are equal, they would not have kept slaves. They also would have allowed "common men" to vote. They did not. The consent of the governed was not derived from the common men. It was derived from the rich, white, land-owning men over the age of 21.

I covered slavery in a previous post, you have to realize that we are talking about 1776-1787 time frame. Darwin had not even done his famous journey, or formed his theory on evolution. African-americans were not thought of as equals or even the same species. so the definition of "All men are created equal" did not include blacks or indians.


The voting thing being tied to age and land ownership, on its face seems discriminatory, but I have thought on this, and it is actually a good thing IMO

they wanted people with roots in the community (land owners) and some age (wisdom) to vote. their vote would likely reflect well on the issues, and could not be "bought vote", or looked at as a short term gain.

voting was not such a big deal (and would not be a big deal today), if they had not shredded the bill of rights under majority rule.

the mob is a dangerous animal, the founders knew that, so they wanted mature, working, roots in the community, etc people to vote.

they did not want 18 year olds with no clue about how/why etc who are more interested in American idol or dancing with the stars.


Also, when you think of 21 as the voting age in 1776, the average life span was much less than today, perhaps 50-60 (60 being a very rare example)years of age being max. so 21 was 1/3 to 40% of your lifespan.

today with an average lifespan of perhaps 74 years (give or take), we would see voting age to be 25-35 years of age. not 18 years old

azxcvbnm321
10-17-2006, 06:58 AM
The Constitution was a difficult compromise and it's incredible that these men were able to create such a great document under the pressure they were under along with all the differing viewpoints.

Many people didn't want an UNITED STATES, they wanted each state to be a country onto itself. Any article outlawing slavery would have been immediately rejected by the South so, in order to form the United States, slavery was never prohibited. Some people say that the phrase, "All men are created equal" was forward looking and implied that someday slavery would be outlawed. Who knows? All I know is that the Constitution works.

By the way, Madison, Hamilton and others were against the Bill of Rights. Why? Because they thought that people would be confused and think those were the only rights people had. They both made it clear that the Federal Government only has the specific powers listed in the Constitution, no more. Everything else was reserved for the States and the people, thus the people have all other rights, not just the ten listed in the Constitution. Fortunately there were those who understood that power corrupts and insisted that important rights be listed and protected anyway. It's too bad that people today tolerate this and allow the government to take away the rights that are ours.

Carl
10-17-2006, 02:23 PM
A statement of "apparent fact" can be supported; you are simply stating your opinion.Yes, the "apparent fact" as stated could be construed to be an opinion by the historically uninformed.

The Declaration states that all men are created equal. One must not take this to assume that all men remain equal after their creation. Furthermore, if the founders truely believed that all men are equal, they would not have kept slaves. They also would have allowed "common men" to vote. They did not. The consent of the governed was not derived from the common men. It was derived from the rich, white, land-owning men over the age of 21.20th Century thinking applied to 18th Century Actions. See: Large Sarge's post.

I do laud your grasp of the fact that all men are created equal but after that, they're pretty much on their own. You're as equal as your willingness to apply yourself towards being.


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Worldmariner
10-17-2006, 06:19 PM
Yes, the "apparent fact" as stated could be construed to be an opinion by the historically uninformed.

20th Century thinking applied to 18th Century Actions. See: Large Sarge's post.

I do laud your grasp of the fact that all men are created equal but after that, they're pretty much on their own. You're as equal as your willingness to apply yourself towards being.


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Willingness to apply yourself had absolutely nothing to do with voting 225 years ago. If you were not white, a landowner, and male, you were not included. That means girls to. The distinction "created" and "after creation" is meaningless in this context. Focus on the definition of "all men". The definition back then was obviously white landowning males. I don't think any historian debates that fact at all.

Large Sarge
10-18-2006, 06:22 AM
Willingness to apply yourself had absolutely nothing to do with voting 225 years ago. If you were not white, a landowner, and male, you were not included. That means girls to. The distinction "created" and "after creation" is meaningless in this context. Focus on the definition of "all men". The definition back then was obviously white landowning males. I don't think any historian debates that fact at all.

Voting should not be a big deal.

I should not be able to get enough votes to steal your wealth, end your life, etc etc, .

We are talking about "Mob Rule"

whatever the mob wants, it gets.

that is no kind of legal system or rational form of government

The Bill of Rights/constitution was set up to guard against this.

Voting should not carry the weight of importance it does today.

the U.S. was never intended to be a democracy, all democracies have ended very badly (bankrupt & bloodied from many many wars, which the founders were well aware of), we were supposed to be a consitutional republic.

Voting was a very minor part of the process.

I think voting is easy to understand, so it is grasped by the majority.

Halophyte
10-18-2006, 09:41 AM
@ Carl ..... chill out dude, it's not my article, read the sig line by "The Informer" Sorry, no linky.

I do agree with the legal concept of "strawman", the Constitution forbids the state government from interacting with a foreign entity and visa versa for the people, we are all forced to do business with a legal frontman. Your strawman was created for you and if you've never rejected the assumption the latching law of presumption still exist.


Here's another one that's gonna piss you off.

1. Prior to the adoption of the fourteenth amendment, a “citizen” of the United States did not exist.

2. A person’s recognized status as a “citizen” was inexorably tied to his being a citizen of a state.

3. The fourteenth amendment created a citizenship that never had existed before.

4. The fourteenth amendment defined a citizenship that never had been defined before.

5. This newly defined citizen must be:

a) born or naturalized in the United States and

b) subject to the jurisdiction thereof.

6. Those “excluded” by the clause “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” were children of foreign representatives and the like.

Since this newly defined citizen must meet two criteria to be a citizen of the United States the question then becomes, what is “born or naturalized” and what is the meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” The term “born” is easy and needs no analysis. The term “naturalized” in the modern age is generally thought of as meaning the process of immigration procedures requisite to becoming a U.S. citizen. Black’s Dictionary, 6th Edition, defines the term as meaning “[t]he process by which a person acquires nationality after birth and becomes entitled to the privileges of U.S. citizenship. 8 U.S.C.A. § 1401 et seq.”

The second element to define is the word “subject” as used in the phrase “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” According to Black’s, a “subject” is defined as one that owes allegiance to a sovereign and is governed by his laws. So it naturally follows that a citizen of the United States will be one who is either born in or naturalized into the United States and will be one that owes allegiance to the sovereign and is governed by his laws. So who is the sovereign ?

The amendment defines the citizen as one who is subject to the jurisdiction “thereof.” This word is defined in Webster’s as “of the place, thing, event, etc. just mentioned.” So one must return to the language of Section one which reads, “All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof…” It is grammatically evident that the place or thing just mentioned, that being the preceding direct object of the sentence, is “the United States.” So one presumes, according to this amendment, that a citizen of the United States is one who is either born in or naturalized in this place or thing called the United States and is also one who owes allegiance to the sovereign called the United States.

The next question to ask it just who or what is this sovereign named the United States?

In the United States Code there is found a definition of the United States under Title 28, Section 3002 (15)(A). In this section the “United States means – (A) a Federal corporation.” The United States means a Federal corporation. A corporation, according to Black’s is: “An artificial person or legal entity created by or under the authority of the laws of a state.”

In 19 CJS § 883 one finds the statement that “The United States government is a foreign corporation with respect to a State.” The above case is cited as the authority. That the United States is a foreign corporation is exactly what the court held. By affirming the decision, the United States Supreme Court concurred in U.S. v. Perkins, 163 U.S. 625 (1896).



There you have it Carl. If you are a U.S.Citizen you owe allegiance to a foreign corporation.

Still think the CONstitution was written for the common man, or just corporate slaves ?

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Carl
10-18-2006, 02:48 PM
Willingness to apply yourself had absolutely nothing to do with voting 225 years ago. If you were not white, a landowner, and male, you were not included. That means girls to. The distinction "created" and "after creation" is meaningless in this context. Focus on the definition of "all men". The definition back then was obviously white landowning males. I don't think any historian debates that fact at all.It's an IDEAL that we strive to live up to and continue to fail, but we are better now than what we were then and, hopefully, we'll be better in the future, and that's the way ideals work.


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Carl
10-18-2006, 02:56 PM
@ Carl ..... Here's another one that's gonna piss you off...............Still think the CONstitution was written for the common man, or just corporate slaves ?
. Yep, it probably would if it was the first time I've ever heard it. You're telling me stuff I knew about back in the 80's. The Constitution was written for a free people so that they may live in liberty. The Supreme Court is not the Supreme law of the land; they are usurpers, just as the federal government is a usurper. The Constitution was written for a diligent people, it isn't the Constitution that has failed us, we have failed the Constitution.


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Halophyte
10-18-2006, 07:23 PM
Yep, it probably would if it was the first time I've ever heard it. You're telling me stuff I knew about back in the 80's. The Constitution was written for a free people so that they may live in liberty. The Supreme Court is not the Supreme law of the land; they are usurpers, just as the federal government is a usurper. The Constitution was written for a diligent people, it isn't the Constitution that has failed us, we have failed the Constitution.


.


So you agree with me, that patriots do not have to be citizens ?


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Carl
10-18-2006, 07:47 PM
So you agree with me, that patriots do not have to be citizens ?


.
Citizens of their respective states.

I am a citizen of the Free Republic of Texas, United States of America, I am not a United States Citizen.

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Worldmariner
10-19-2006, 06:51 AM
@ Carl .....
In 19 CJS § 883 one finds the statement that “The United States government is a foreign corporation with respect to a State.” The above case is cited as the authority. That the United States is a foreign corporation is exactly what the court held. By affirming the decision, the United States Supreme Court concurred in U.S. v. Perkins, 163 U.S. 625 (1896).



There you have it Carl. If you are a U.S.Citizen you owe allegiance to a foreign corporation.

Still think the CONstitution was written for the common man, or just corporate slaves ?

.

Slight question about the logic train here... Yes, with respect to a state, the United States (not the UNITED STATES) is a foreign corporation. That is the relationship. Nothing new there. So with repsect to your citizenship of a any state, then the United States IS a foreign Corp. But you can also be a federal citizen. So... if you are a federal citizen, then you are PART of the United STates; part of the corp that if foreign to each state. You can actually have 2 forms of citizenship. We know this. From the perspective of the United STates, the indiviual state is the foreign corp. It depends on the perspective.

There is a forum here at GIM that addresses these two forms of citizenship.

Recall, the Constitution was written BEFORE the realization that the United STates was also it own legal fiction; its own corp.

azxcvbnm321
10-19-2006, 07:59 AM
Are you sure you're not taking the Code out of context? I would like to see more of the text. Plus, aren't all governments pretty much like corporations? They're made up of many individuals, citizens (stockholders) get to vote in a Board (Congress) and they are separate legal entities (Like in United States vs. John Doe). I don't see what's so alarming.

Worldmariner
10-19-2006, 05:57 PM
Are you sure you're not taking the Code out of context? I would like to see more of the text. Plus, aren't all governments pretty much like corporations? They're made up of many individuals, citizens (stockholders) get to vote in a Board (Congress) and they are separate legal entities (Like in United States vs. John Doe). I don't see what's so alarming.

I personally do not have big issues with being a federal citizen. it allows me to obtain a US passport which gets me into almost any country i want to. I dislike being tricked into signing my SSN card, and getting sucked into federal taxes, although our fed tax does buy us much, i think it is overpriced. I feel we would not be the great nation we are today without at least some form of fed tax system. I definitely am not happy about having our land signed away into some collateralization deal with banks, nor am i happy about our current fiat system.

Halophyte
10-19-2006, 06:43 PM
I suggest you proud federal citiizens read this carefully, when you have time to digest the implications ...


http://www.commonlawlibrary.com/MiscDocs/essay.htm

Veritas
10-24-2006, 11:13 PM
Citizens of their respective states.

I am a citizen of the Free Republic of Texas, United States of America, I am not a United States Citizen.

.

Does the "Free Republic of Texas" identify you by your Social Security number?

Does the United States levy a tax on your income?

Carl
10-25-2006, 04:07 PM
Does the "Free Republic of Texas" identify you by your Social Security number?

Does the United States levy a tax on your income?No and No. Texas uses my old driver's license number from when I had one and the United States requires you to file before they can levy a tax. No File, No Tax.


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Veritas
10-26-2006, 03:08 PM
No and No. Texas uses my old driver's license number from when I had one and the United States requires you to file before they can levy a tax. No File, No Tax.

Do you drive without a driver's license or do you no longer drive?

I'm still not clear on how you say you get around the income tax. Unless you file "EXEMPT", your employer will take a percentage of your "income" for federal taxes. If you are self-employed, then you would need to acquire a federal tax ID.

There are ways around this but they can be considered "risky" and based on your responses it doesn't seem to me that you are imploring such alternatives. It is just not as simple as "no file, no tax".

Lord_Sidious
09-27-2007, 01:31 PM
A statement of "apparent fact" can be supported; you are simply stating your opinion.



The Declaration states that all men are created equal. One must not take this to assume that all men remain equal after their creation. Furthermore, if the founders truely believed that all men are equal, they would not have kept slaves. They also would have allowed "common men" to vote. They did not. The consent of the governed was not derived from the common men. It was derived from the rich, white, land-owning men over the age of 21.

Now that is what I call reading between the lines. Great catch, most of us, including myself, would have missed those points.

Lord_Sidious
09-27-2007, 01:35 PM
I do laud your grasp of the fact that all men are created equal but after that, they're pretty much on their own. You're as equal as your willingness to apply yourself towards being.
.

Yeah, but read between the lines like he did. If you end up as a debtor, you aren't equal to a creditor, are you? What if, we are ALL debtors, till we prove that we are, in fact, creditors?

Lord_Sidious
09-27-2007, 01:38 PM
Yep, it probably would if it was the first time I've ever heard it. You're telling me stuff I knew about back in the 80's. The Constitution was written for a free people so that they may live in liberty. The Supreme Court is not the Supreme law of the land; they are usurpers, just as the federal government is a usurper. The Constitution was written for a diligent people, it isn't the Constitution that has failed us, we have failed the Constitution.


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I beg to differ. The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA was bankrupt BEFORE the war against the crown had even started. They owed money to the crowns of the UK and France, let alone the CITY OF LONDON.
The constitution was created by receivers to repay the debt. The subjects of this constitution are the strawman debtors.