Some physical storage questions

[Kinkakuji]

Hi, I'm new here and I'm looking for some advice.

My current job requires me to relocate internationally every few years. This adds a few complications to my plans to invest a part of my savings in physical hard assets.

I've pretty much given up on investing significantly in silver. From lurking here for a while, I know a lot of you guys are very bullish on silver, and recommend buying $1000 bags of 90% coins. I agree with many of the arguments presented for this type of investment, but it just isn't practical for me. 55lb bags of coins just don't travel well -- much too heavy for including in your luggage, and not too easy to explain to customs agents. Surface shipping them with the rest of my household goods is also not good because of the likelihood of theft. The only real option for silver is to leave it in a permanent, secure vault in the US (big safe deposit box, maybe?) or perhaps do the Perth Mint certificate program.

But really, right now I've decided to just stick to gold because it is so much more compact and easy to travel with. It's quite easy to just throw a handful of coins into my carry-on baggage and that's that.

My question is about storage suggestions when I'm overseas. I'm sometimes hesitant to use local banks' safe-deposit boxes or the like because many countries' banks are simply not as trustworthy as ours -- and that's saying something considering the fact that US banks were party to the confiscation of everybody's gold not so long ago. But keeping it all in my apartment overseas doesn't seem terribly wise either, with the small but significant risk of burglary/theft. Many of you guys seem to own houses, where it's easy enough for you to install a heavy safe in the basement, or bury stuff in the backyard. I don't have these luxuries.

Any suggestions for how I could best store my physical gold as safely as possible while living and working overseas?

I'm afraid my family members in the US are not reliable enough to help me with this. No matter how much I explained my intentions to them, and how much I explained the nature of these investments, I'm convinced that within a year or two I'd get a phone call where they proudly tell me how they rolled up all those silly old quarters of mine and deposited them in my bank account and would I believe it, but there was a THOUSAND dollars in that bag! Or perhaps that my step-brother borrowed some of them for doing laundry but he'd be sure to pay me back. I'm sure they would also find ways of screwing up with gold, too.

Thanks! I appreciate any advice you can give me.

[Halophyte]

Buy the silver; find a place to burry it. I suggest four-inch diameter schedule 40 PVC pipe, cut and glue an end cap at bottom end. Glue an adapter fitting to allow a threaded end cap on the other end (burry pointing up). Drop a pouch of silicon gel in each tube to absorb moisture. Use a posthole power auger to dig the burry holes, set the tube and earth cover when filled.


IAW the Patriot Act - This advice is to prevent theft of valuables and does not endorse evasion of legal financial obligations to government entities or assist in financing terrorism. :bandit:

.

[Joejeweler]

I believe Halophyte would also recommend wherever you might bury it be land not likely to be dug around or on someone else's private land! Probably best in a heavily wooded federal or state designated forever wild land. The heavily wooded part will keep most metal detector types out and the forever wild designantion keeps builders from possibly digging it up. Just be sure to make an accurate, detailed map so YOU can find it again!

By the way, if you don't feel like digging and still want some exposure to silver, you might set up a "pool" account at www.kitco.com Though any investment in precious metals where you don't take actual delivery would not be recommended by most on this site, it wouldn't bother me for someone in your situation of traveling for long periods of time to far off parts. There is no charge to set up the account, no storage fees, and minimal buy/sell spreads. Currently, at $7.53 silver, kitco will sell you silver at $7.65 and buy it back at $7.43.........which is pretty darn good! (actually about the lowest spread of ANY silver investment i've found.......and there other pool accounts are good that way also). For gold, i'll keep physical on hand, however......as the storage bulk problem is not near as bad as with silver in large amounts!

Though still held by a third party, and therefore not having absolute "in hand" safety if the world goes to hell........it's still an option and the size and reputation of a company like kitco means alot! Still carry your gold with you......but silver will probably do much better and if this is the only way to get you invested.......worth the slight risk IMO. About as safe in my mind as buying silver stocks and such........where you don't actually have physical metal in hand either, though you do get leverage of course.

[Tn...Andy]

The solution is in your own words "My current job".

This may or may not fit your situation, if it doesn't, just ignore it, I'll take no offense and hope you don't either .....but here goes anyway.....

I participate in some other forums that are more survialistic in nature in a post SHTF situation. I hear the same sorta things there..." I'd like to have a food/water storage program ( which to ME is FAR more important and first priority over this metal playing stuff ) BUT I can't because I live in an apartment" or "Yes, I think the cities are gonna burn when the welfare checks stop, but WHAT can I do......that's where my job is ?"......

And my answer is: Unless there is a piano chained to your leg preventing you from moving, or an "S" branded on your cheek indicating your employer owns you, AND you really, really, really believe that those other things ( the food, the location, whatever) really ARE important, then MAKE THE DADGUM CHANGE, brother.



So, maybe, you need to consider the implication of being at the mercy of others in an apartment in another country.......and I say that NOT just for metal storage.....and out of concern for your stomach as well as your wallet !

[HistoryStudent]

Central Fund of Canada on the SM is "CEF" trading symbol. All they hold is gold and silver at a 50 to 1 ratio. The premium is high however around 10 to 15% - and right now they are hitting new highs in the stock price. DYODD.

Like the PVC advise above. Might work well on a slope if you have that type of home and land.

[kunery]

Another option: Pick 2-3 reasonably stable countries where a U.S. citizen is permitted to own land and which would likely be accessible to you in the future -- perhaps the U.S., Canada, Australia, others...?

Then find a rural spot in each, not too far from a major airport you could fly into, but as "low-rent" and cheap an area as possible. Buy a half-acre or even quarter-acre lot "to put a camping trailer on for vacation use." If you can get a used, junk trailer cheap enough, fine, actually put one there. Be sure to put sufficient funds in a local bank account set up to automatically pay the taxes on the (again: "cheap") property.

Once you have a junk camping trailer or some other sort of junky vacation shack on your property (to serve as an excuse for having pipes and other metal objects buried there, thwarting metal detectors) bury your stash of metals on your land. (I'd lean toward 90% junk silver, plus any 1-0z gold Kruggerands you can afford, but whatever).

Any theft or vandalism to the junk camper or cabin is no loss. There should be sufficient "reasonably-explainable" buried pipes and other metal to make it impossible to find your buried coins with a metal detector. You have every legal right to access your own "vacation property" and don't risk storing your valuables on someone else's land. AND, it might be very nice to have some wealth stored in SEVERAL accessible countries, in the event you might someday want to Get Out Of Dodge.

There's pretty cheap "junk lots" for sale not terribly far from many major airports -- even bicycle-range, if absolute worst came to absolute worst. You might find some by cruising around in the course of your travels and picking up copies of local, small-town newspapers for ads, where the local realtors will also be advertising of course.

Good luck. Your work-related "drawbacks" or "handicaps" might be turned to advantages if you can get the above ideas to work.

[Kinkakuji]

I appreciate all the varied and interesting advice you guys have given me so far. You've given me some good ideas. I'm definitely thinking about buying a little plot of land somewhere that could serve the dual purpose of vacation getaway and possible escape location if the SHTF as you guys like to say. But really, I guess I'm not nearly as much of a survivalist as some of you all, especially Tn...Andy (don't worry I didn't take any offence by your suggestion; I hope you don't take offence at my not following it). I don't really believe the most extreme SHTF scenarios are likely -- even in Argentina's crisis of a couple years ago, people didn't flee to the hills, living off of hidden food storage, carrying on transactions only in gold and silver coins.

If I really believed with any certainty that the world was going to heck in a handbasket in the very near future, I wouldn't hesitate long to quit my job, sell everything, buy a plot of land out in the woods, stock up on everything I'd need to survive for a few years, invest the balance of my savings in 90% silver and K-Rands, bury them around my property, and then wait for doomsday. But I'm far from certain that the worst case scenarios people imagine will come to pass. In fact, I think it highly unlikely -- not impossible, but highly unlikely. Instead, I think of a 5-10% allocation of my savings to PM as more of a prudent insurance policy against this very unlikely outcome, or the somewhat more likely reemergence of serious inflation.

Insurance policies are for things you don't think are likely, but which you would be devestated if they actually did happen. You don't expect your house to burn down in the next few months, but you still pay the premiums on your homeowner's insurance to save your butt in the highly unlikely event that it does. If you actually knew the house were going to burn down, you'd get your stuff out and move somewhere else now before it happens.

I'm still in my twenties and have (I hope) many productive years ahead of me if I stick with my current career, during which time I can ensure a long and secure future for myself and my (future) family by keeping out of debt and saving diligently -- including a constant allocation to hard assets. Throwing it all away and packing up for a trailer in the woods now out of fear of an unlikely, but dreadful collapse of society just doesn't make sense to me right now.

I don't want to start an argument about the likelihood of any such doomsday scenario coming to pass. I respect the opinions of those who do believe that, and I appreciate the warning they give to the rest of us to prepare for that outcome, however unlikely we think it may be.

I'm just looking for advice on how best to manage my little "insurance policy" under my unique circumstances. Any advice out there on good storage ideas for the gold I bring with me overseas (ignoring for now considerations of burying stuff in the woods here in the states). Assuming the S really does HTF, I'd want to have enough gold to survive wherever I happened to be at the time, and hopefully enough to get back home (to that trailer with the PVC pipes full of 90% buried in the woods, if I decide to go that route). I'll probably end up putting at least some of it in a local bank, but what are some good ideas for protecting the rest when I'm living in an apartment?

Thanks again for all your help and advice. This is a great forum.

[lhslancers]

So you're 90% long sm's and looking to diversify into pm's via 10% allocation? You got it backwards. That was last decade.

[Joejeweler]

Kinkakuji.........some here will use a length of 2 1/2 inch PVC pipe with a sealed cap on one end, and a screw in "clean out" conection on the other end for storage of both Krugerrands and American Eagle gold coins. The tubes they come in fit really well in these, and i've made some to hold exactly 100 coins, or 5 tubes. (the Krugs come in various length tubes, unlike the Eagles).

These tubes can be placed in a hollowed out area in a wall(covered with panneling or covered with a bookcase), behind a baseboard, or stuck underneath the kitchen sink within the wall appearing as a clean out tube. (just be sure to remove it if you call a plumber for a real plumbing problem!). :D

If you have a dirt basement where you move bury a tube or two there, but only when you know you're alone!

However, i wouldn't travel with these tubes already made up......as to a security guy it "might" appear to look like a bomb! :Sorry:

[Tn...Andy]

I appreciate all the varied and interesting advice you guys have given me so far. You've given me some good ideas. I'm definitely thinking about buying a little plot of land somewhere that could serve the dual purpose of vacation getaway and possible escape location if the SHTF as you guys like to say. But really, I guess I'm not nearly as much of a survivalist as some of you all, especially Tn...Andy (don't worry I didn't take any offence by your suggestion; I hope you don't take offence at my not following it). I don't really believe the most extreme SHTF scenarios are likely -- even in Argentina's crisis of a couple years ago, people didn't flee to the hills, living off of hidden food storage, carrying on transactions only in gold and silver coins.........

.

No offence taken.....was merely offering my advice......it's worth what you pay for it :wink:

For the record, I'm not hiding in the woods....I live there, and quite well I might add :D ......but it's not for everbody, and thank God ....or there'd be a LOT less woods.....ahahahaaaaa......

At a minimum, I would purchase some area for a "retreat", store the bulk of your metals there in any one of a number of creative ways, and spend the rest of life just being aware that the world may NOT always be as it is now.
Same reason you would buy any insurance. You'll be ahead of 99% of the folks that would die off if the world does just happen to go to crap.

[Maple Leaf Steve]

First of all I don't like the idea of owning more silver than gold.

For two reasons...

1.) Too much silver will bog you down.
Then you have to worry about where to hide it.
Then you run into transport problems.


2.) One guy in this country named Warren Buffett already owns one billion dollars worth of silver. If he ever decides to unload that stuff back into the market then the price of silver is going to drop like a lead balloon!

Don't get me wrong though... I like silver!
It will be a great thing to have when the SHTF.

Still though...

Gold is and will always be KING!

MLS

[Tn...Andy]

IF Buffet still has his silver ( and I've heard he may have already "leased" it out ), I'd sure like for him to dump it......that would take care of the shortage for maybe one year or so, run the price down for a while so I could buy more, and I'd ultimately make a lot more off the deal.

Gold is nice.....lot's of history......but most of it is still around.

Silver is gone.....even Buffet's is a drop in the bucket over the long haul.

I bought a pound of silver solder sticks today for some copper pipe work. 30 FRNs for a one pound tube.......wonder what it will be in 2-3 years ? And if you're soldering AC lines, that's ALL that will work. Right now, it takes maybe 5-6 bucks worth for a 4000 buck heat pump system.......IF the stuff goes to 200 bucks for a tube, it will add 30-40 bucks to a system.....think that will stop anybody from buying a heat pump ?

[hoarder]

I too doubt Buffet still has any physical silver. Recently saw a photgraph of Buffet, Shwartzenegger and Rothschild together. Buffet is a member of the CFR. He's an insider. He would not get by with pissing off the international bankers. I hope I'm wrong. I hope he has a lot of silver to dump on the market and drive down the POS. I have 2 properties under contract to sell and I could sure use a pullback.

[HistoryStudent]

I too doubt Buffet still has any physical silver. Recently saw a photgraph of Buffet, Shwartzenegger and Rothschild together. Buffet is a member of the CFR. He's an insider. He would not get by with pissing off the international bankers. I hope I'm wrong. I hope he has a lot of silver to dump on the market and drive down the POS. I have 2 properties under contract to sell and I could sure use a pullback.

That's what Ted Butler been saying recently. Proabably was a deal between the government bailing his insurance company out on the Twin Towers super policy and him giving them the silver cause they are all out.

Tit for tat.

[rural_ghetto]

I think the post about buying some land in a American-friendly country and burying it was a great idea. However, If you don't want to do that for whatever reason, it is still pretty simple to hide it in your apartment. This thread had some interesting ideas about hiding it inside doors, lamps, and couch legs:

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=6900&highlight=hiding+furniture

And in that thread Bobcat posted a link to this site which may be of interest:

http://www.hiddensafes.com/

[PONCE]

I think the post about buying some land in a American-friendly country and burying it was a great idea. However, If you don't want to do that for whatever reason, it is still pretty simple to hide it in your apartment. This thread had some interesting ideas about hiding it inside doors, lamps, and couch legs:

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=6900&highlight=hiding+furniture

And in that thread Bobcat posted a link to this site which may be of interest:

http://www.hiddensafes.com/


If you can hide your silver in a door or window and so on then it means that you don't have that much, as you know silver is heavy, now then, if you do have a lot then is better to make a hole in one of your walls then place the silver there, cover the hole and paint,,,,,,, remember now, you are buying silver for long term storage and not for one or two weeks.

At first I did have my silver like I described above but now is way to much and I have it elsewhere. If you have a lot (minimum of 10,000 OZ) then buried in a deep hole in PVC pipes, cover the hole with 12 inches of dirt, make it look like a burn hole by placing trash and a lot of empty cans there make a fire and then recover the hole to the top.

If someone goes over it with a metal detector all they will find is the burn trash and wont go no deeper,,,,,,,,,,,, Amen.

[HistoryStudent]

First of all I don't like the idea of owning more silver than gold.

For two reasons...

1.) Too much silver will bog you down.
Then you have to worry about where to hide it.
Then you run into transport problems.


2.) One guy in this country named Warren Buffett already owns one billion dollars worth of silver. If he ever decides to unload that stuff back into the market then the price of silver is going to drop like a lead balloon!

Don't get me wrong though... I like silver!
It will be a great thing to have when the SHTF.

Still though...

Gold is and will always be KING!

MLS

Ted Butler figures (my paraphase only) he just holds the lease papers on it because of all the 20 million ounce shipments to the COMEX: and that Trade towers his causality insurance company in Bershire Hathaway had to cover was with a paper backing from the FED - I don't know. But it sure makes NUMBERS sense. We will see because the silver market should come unglued soon and when the ratio falls to say 20 to one you get 3 ounces of gold free with every 80 traded - for your smaller stuff. (assuming an 80 to 1 ratio back a few months ago)

[clark kent]

This thread seems to only address half of the subject.

My concern [should things get so bad] has been that the government agencies can find out that I have purchased bullion, and not sold it on.

It must be easy for them to track purchases and sales in this computer age. Every transaction on ebay, for example, is recorded and available to a surprisingly open range of viewers.

Apart from buying with cash at a coin shop, I can't see an easy alternative. If the tax man comes and looks through your books, he'd notice a lot of cash leaking out, unless carefully managed over a long period.

Buying some land abroad and hiding it there - I like. But if you're back in your old country surely they'd get you for it.

I've got a lot of silver at Perth Mint [I live in England]. Maybe I could go there, take physical, drive it to the bush and bury it AND stay in that country.

Perhaps that would work...
But what if you don't want to emigrate [even if another country would take you in an economic depression..] ?

I suppose you could say you hid it somewhere, but since you started to get alzheimer's disease [you'd need a friendly doctor to fake a report], you forgot where you hid it.
You'd probably still 'owe' the government for its equivalent .

Anyone dreamt up a good plan ??

[Orson]

As far as purchase records, that is also a concern that I had. It was one reason that I made my first purchase from Certified Mint (http://www.certifiedmint.com). They use no computers. They put your name/address on a notecard and staple it to the invoice. After the goods are delivered, they detach the card from the invoice and throw out the card. You can read about it on their web site.

I can vouch for the fact that the person takes forever to write down your name/address (versus punching your info into a computer) and they don't remember you when you return as a customer.

Their prices aren't as good as AJPM or Tulving, but they will sell in extremely small or extremely large quantities.

[shades2]

This thread seems to only address half of the subject.

My concern [should things get so bad] has been that the government agencies can find out that I have purchased bullion, and not sold it on.

It must be easy for them to track purchases and sales in this computer age. Every transaction on ebay, for example, is recorded and available to a surprisingly open range of viewers.

Apart from buying with cash at a coin shop, I can't see an easy alternative. If the tax man comes and looks through your books, he'd notice a lot of cash leaking out, unless carefully managed over a long period.

Buying some land abroad and hiding it there - I like. But if you're back in your old country surely they'd get you for it.

I've got a lot of silver at Perth Mint [I live in England]. Maybe I could go there, take physical, drive it to the bush and bury it AND stay in that country.

Perhaps that would work...
But what if you don't want to emigrate [even if another country would take you in an economic depression..] ?

I suppose you could say you hid it somewhere, but since you started to get alzheimer's disease [you'd need a friendly doctor to fake a report], you forgot where you hid it.
You'd probably still 'owe' the government for its equivalent .

Anyone dreamt up a good plan ??



Only problem with that idea is the bush tends to get disturbed quite a bit nowadays with people wandering about and development taking place. Metal detecting is also a good past-time here in Australia, but mainly in the desert areas.

So, go on vacation.... :)

If you go wayyy (800 km) out into the desert with your stash in some isolated spot, use a lever to move a large rock (make sure it is Crown land). Hide it under there. Use a GPS and a map and take multiple (accurate) bearings on the location, so you can find it no matter what.

Don't let anyone see what you're up to, so take binoculars, and perhaps do this using a canvas tent to hide what you're up to. Once you're done, scatter a large volume of rusty crud like nails and wire around the place and nearby. This will be enough to deter most people with a detector, as nothing is more annoying than searching and finding this crap when looking for gold. More than one location is the way to go. Why lose your whole stash in one unfortunate incident?

Getting to it in a hurry is the only embuggarance. A 14 hour flight on a plane, and a drive to the desert and back is in store if you need to unload in a hurry.

[shades2]

As far as purchase records, that is also a concern that I had. It was one reason that I made my first purchase from Certified Mint (http://www.certifiedmint.com). They use no computers. They put your name/address on a notecard and staple it to the invoice. After the goods are delivered, they detach the card from the invoice and throw out the card. You can read about it on their web site.

I can vouch for the fact that the person takes forever to write down your name/address (versus punching your info into a computer) and they don't remember you when you return as a customer.

Their prices aren't as good as AJPM or Tulving, but they will sell in extremely small or extremely large quantities.

Where I bought I paid cash, and they didn't take down a single thing! :D

The only issue is if I sell there, then they take down an address and a name.
I don't intend to sell there, so that's OK.

[edjerider]

If your silver is in the perth mint you don't need a plan, it's as good as sold for you if they want it. If you ever get it out then a plan is easy to formulate. Foe example, for a kilo or two I'll personally clock you on the head, leave a good lump and some blood [which you deserve anyway for leaving your silver in exchange for a paper promise] and you tell the cops you were ROBBED!!!

As for living here? It's a rough life in Australia! Have you ever fought a crock bare handed, do you know how to herd kangaroos?

[clark kent]

I can drink a whole tinny [Fosters] without falling over. :getdown:

[Dissipate]

I'm going to go against the grain here and suggest you open an account at goldmoney (goldmoney.com) and deposit your money there. Your account is 100% backed by gold at all times, and you can access your account anywhere in the world where you can connect to the Internet. This will enable you to invest in gold and at the same time do away with all the hassles of carrying it around. Furthermore, you can liquidate your account at the current spot price at any time with the funds being deposited directly into your bank account. Also, if you wish you can send any portion of your goldmoney account to anyone else who has an account with goldmoney anywhere in the world.

[lhslancers]

Assuming you can access the internet or use the phone.

[Dissipate]

Assuming you can access the internet or use the phone.

What's your point? It's better to be able to access your account in many locations than just one physical location. If the spot price of gold skyrockets you just need to get to one of millions of locations that have Internet access and sell off your goldmoney account holdings.

If you have physical stashed somewhere, you have to get to the physical location, dig up the gold and then try to sell it to some dealer.

[lhslancers]

Metals not in your hands are not your metals at all.

[Dissipate]

Metals not in your hands are not your metals at all.

A claim to metal with a reputable institution is good enough for me. To claim that such a reputable institution does not or cannot exist is silly.

[shades2]

I can drink a whole tinny [Fosters] without falling over. :getdown:


Aussies don't actually drink Fosters! It's an export beer that we generally don't even like.

We have much better beers including Carlton Draught, and a number of other international beers, like Newcastle Brown Ale, Kilkenny. Those are my personal faves.

Other people's faves include Carton Cold, Tooheys New. etc.

Yes we are very lucky to have such an excellent assortment of beer available.

[lhslancers]

Ever hear of Deak Perera? Google them and see what you see. If you feel that way you would be much better off taking a flyer on SSRI here and hold for the long term. Take a look at CFTN too. You are missing the main point of investing in the metals themselves. Do yourself a favor and research Deak Perera. One of the largest metals dealers during the last big bull went belly up. An unfortunate sould who inherited certificates from his deceased father found out all they were good for was to wipe yer arse with. Just a heads up do what you will.