The Myth of Palestine

[Mujahideen]

Isn't it interesting that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland?

What country(s) was (were) there before Israel existed?

[.41Dave]

Originally Posted by greenbear

there is no such people as the "Palestinians". The people TPTB call "Palestinians" are being used as pawns by the rest of the Arab world in their campaign against the very existence of the state of Israel. None of these nations, some of whom are genetically indistinguishable from the "Palestinians", will open their borders to them because their agenda is to use these people as pawns to affect international public opinion against Israel. And remember that Israel holds 1/10th of 1 percent of the mid-east landmass. The "crisis" is not the minuscule piece of land Israel controls, the "crisis" is that the Jews have been "allowed" by the world community to re-settle in a small portion of their original territory.

While Palestine has not existed as an independent political entity, to conclude from this that Palestinians as a people do not exist is a logical fallacy and perhaps sophistry. This false argument is used primarily as a diversion from the real issues surrounding Israel and the fact that regardless what you call them, there were many thousands of people who had lived in the land of south of Lebanon and West of Jordan for countless generations who were suddenly and forcibly dispossessed of their lands, dwellings, possessions and for all too many, their lives by a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing. The efforts to make these people "disappear" using semantics and convoluted rationalizations so that their suffering and oppression at the hands of the Israelis can be safely ignored seems quite un-Christian, especially so given that about one quarter of the dispossessed native inhabitants of whatever you want to call that land were in fact, Christians.

Also, can you please tell me why the "world community" had any right to re-settle anyone on land that didn't belong to them? Does the "world community" have the right to resettle someone in your house and tell you that you have no right to it?

[TonyG]

Originally Posted by Haltiat

I view it as the literal effects of angelic warfare. Sufficient bombardment will blacken the skies. Apparently mass drivers of some sort will be used against the earth. We still call meteors "falling stars."

Hi Haltiat;
Would you humor me just a little;
Would you take your bible and open it ot Isaiah 13 and see what verse 7 describes as this activity? (Edit: verse 17)

[Haltiat]

Originally Posted by TonyG

Hi Haltiat;
Would you humor me just a little;
Would you take your bible and open it ot Isaiah 13 and see what verse 7 describes as this activity?

Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

It says people will be weak with fear... what do you want me to look for?

This chapter has a very bad ending. Do you know what it means?

[skilsaw]

Originally Posted by greenbear

The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.

Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.

There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass.

But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough.

Treating a 5,000-year-old birthright backed by overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence equally with illegitimate claims, wishes and wants gives diplomacy and peacekeeping a bad name.

And yet Israel has more of a "right" or "historical claim" than even that?

Uh yea, why don't we hear Israel's case for their land "rights" there?

[randman]

And yet Israel has more of a "right" or "historical claim" than even that?

Possesion is 9/10 of the law...

Laugh that one off funny guy! LOL

[Angra Mania]

Originally Posted by randman

Possesion is 9/10 of the law...

Laugh that one off funny guy! LOL

Just because I steal something from you does not mean I own what i stole.

[randman]

Just because I steal something from you does not mean I own what i stole.

No..but it does mean that you have to prove I stole it..

Put that one in your pipe and smoke it!

[Angra Mania]

Originally Posted by randman

No..but it does mean that you have to prove I stole it..

Put that one in your pipe and smoke it!

Sure, here you go.

An Israeli advocacy group, using maps and figures leaked from inside the government, says that 39 percent of the land held by Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank is privately owned by Palestinians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/21/wo...rtner=homepage

West Bank settlements have expanded their jurisdictions by taking control of private Palestinian land and allocating it to settlers. The land takeover - which the Civil Administration calls "theft" - has occured in an orderly manner, without any official authorization.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/964843.html

[greenbear]

Preterist= don't read a lot of the Bible in a literal sense because doing so destroys

Covenantalists= their pet doctrine that the church replaces Israel so that they can claim the promises that God gave to the Jews.

Reconstructionists= They believe they have the mandate to govern righteously in Christ's stead. That's why they explain prophetic (and pauline) passages figuratively so they can claim it has already happened so that they can expropriate the power that the Bible says Christ has during his Millennial Kingdom.

Whether you believe that Christ will reign during a 1000 year period on the earth or not, please see that these people believe this millennial age involves THEIR RULE in stead of Christ's. The reality is that they want power; they have no regard for the word of God, what they care about is ruling the world just like every earthly despot in history.

I am reminded of these verses:

John 16:2-3 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

The pharisees in their time were THE MOST RACIST people that have ever existed. What a supreme irony that these supplanters take on the very same traits. God's judgment is an awesome thing to behold!

[TonyG]

[quote]

Originally Posted by greenbear

That is an absurd claim. Any Jew or gentile who gains salvation today must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be born-again by the Spirit of God, thus being joined with Christ in his body in heavenly places. It is at the end of the 7 year Tribulation that all Israel (national Israel) will believe in their Messiah and he will save them according to unconditional promises he has made to the Jews, this is completely apart from the church. This doesn't fit into your philosophy because your doctrine is not based on the Bible. Zechariah 12 hasn't happened yet. It will come to pass and all the families of Israel that remain will be saved, corporately.

I'm familiar with this perspective. Your final 7 yrs (gap theory) is an interjection in scripture necessitated by restoration of Israel / futurist interpretation. The 490 yr prophecy was designed to be fulfilled as a unit and it was fulfilled as a unit.

What does the word "so" in Romans 11:26 mean? "Then"?; Afterwards? "in this manner"!? How is the word "so" defined in Strongs.?

You have no inerrant word of God, you jump around from one per-version to another and quote which ever one you feel best supports your private interpretation at the time.

The "inerrant WORD" is Christ himself; the express image of the godhead in bodily form, including HIS spoken word and teaching; and that Word being now the Holy Spirit. John 1:1-3; Rom 10:6-9; etc. The 'inerrant word' is and was the original texts in their original languages which IS NOT King James english.... nor german...nor etc...

I actually favor the KJV myself and the textus receptus, but not to the extent of calling it inerrant. If the KJV would have been inerrant, there would have been no need for revisions.

When one considers the political hoops and banning that the Geneva bible was subject to in order to establish the KJV; one has to further question if their is ulterior agenda with the translation. The KJV was actually a response by the hierarchy to the Popularity of the Geneva bible which was a response to "bloody Mary" banning the printing of Bibles in England. The Geneva used common language, commentary and phrases that did not respect authoritarian style rule in either the church or the 'kingdom' of England. http://www.reformed.org/documents/in...va/Geneva.html The Geneva was 'historicist' in keeping with most of the reformers perspective, and to this I would disagree. They viewed the pope as anti-christ and beast; not Nero and the 'end times' being first century mosaic covenant Judaism.

After printing the KJV bible, the Geneva was still more popular and this elicited a ban on printing the Geneva within England. Still the Geneva was more popular as it was printed in France and Sweden and imported into England. This was followed by a huge tarriff for importing the bible and through this manner the KJV became more popular than the Geneva bible.

The textus receptus (edit: masoretic text) of the old testatment came through the supposed safekeeping of the Hellenist jews up until the 3rd century. When compared to the Septuagint there are several differences in the MT. There are people who suspect that they altered some of the verses to water down the prophecies about Christ and the church and to favor chilaism, judaism etc. Acts 15 quote of Amos is one such example.

But this discussion about KJV or NASB doesn't address orthotomeo in 2 Tim 2:15 which is identical in both Greek sources. It's just the difference in word interpretation with the NASB and various other dictionaries favoring the "Being diligent" and accurately handling and word, rather than "study" and "rightly dividing". Othotomeo has the mind picture of a sea captain setting a straight course to an end destination. The focus is on the straight path (as is the focus when used in Proverbs) not on dissecting and cutting something. The 'word of truth' can be Christ Himself and the Holy Spirit as much or more than the written "word" of the bible.

I've read your response to Haltiat.
Yes, Israel is a formation of the financial powers; You can read some of it's formation at http://www.sweetliberty.org. Yes I believe it is permitted by the sovereign will of God, and I believe to test and refine individuals and clarify their understanding of Gods' plan and purpose. But present "Israel" is not a fulfillment of prophecy of Duet 30:1-4. Daniels prayer in chapter 9 and Nehemiah in chapter 1 both indicate that the calling back to the land after the curses of the law of Moses unto their 'end times' was going to be at that time and within the context of the Babylonian dispersion, not the "end" administered by God through the Roman armies. The response and message by angel to Daniel indicated that their 'end' purposes (9:24) would come within the next 490 yrs. And their 'latter end' in the direct results and the generation of the happenings in the following 40 yrs. Thus the return of Dan 30:1-4 unto the completing of the end and 'latter end" of mosaic covenant "national" Israel happened directly after Dan and Neh prayers.

Your final 7 yrs (gap theory) is an interjection in scripture necessitated by restoration of Israel / futurist interpretation. The 490 yr prophecy was designed to be fulfilled as a unit and it was fulfilled as a unit.

Yes, Zach 12 had been fulfilled.

You didn't respond to reading Duet 1-5; 18, John 6, Acts 3. I welcome reading that response. Who is the prophet that was to be raised up that would cause the word and nation of the the mosaic covenant to "die" i.e. cease. Was it Jesus? Isaiah? Mohammed? Who did Jesus say that it was in John 6 and Peter in Acts 6?

[TonyG]

Originally Posted by Haltiat

It says people will be weak with fear... what do you want me to look for?

This chapter has a very bad ending. Do you know what it means?

Darn mistype. Sorry bout that; Verse 17 is the one I wished to point out.
What does the chapter associate with the starts, moon, sun not giving their light.?

Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and [as for] gold, they shall not delight in it

Who are 'them' of vs 17.?

VS 1; The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

This chapter talks of the Medes overthrow of Babylon.
This was prophesied 100 plus yrs before the Israelites were even taken captive by the Babylonians.!!

Thus the idea of the sun,moon, stars not giving their LIGHT didn't and doesn't mean that they will be literaly and physically darkened, but that, as you say, either the smoke from the desolation will cloud the sky..... or, more likely, the sun, moon, stars are symbolic of powers of rule and authority
.
In Matt 24; Jesus uses this example of sun/moon/stars being darkened of the Medes desolation of Babylon with the coming overthrow of Jerusalem and Judea by the Romans in 70 AD.

Either way, Jesus' association with these things in the past confirm the manner in which a foreign govt (rome) would sweep away the city and the temple at the time the temple would be destroyed... 70 AD. Again, this would show again that Matt 24 wasn't talking of the end of the "world" but the end of the mosaic covenant age and the nation.

[TonyG]

Originally Posted by greenbear

Preterist= don't read a lot of the Bible in a literal sense because doing so destroys

Covenantalists= their pet doctrine that the church replaces Israel so that they can claim the promises that God gave to the Jews.

Reconstructionists= They believe they have the mandate to govern righteously in Christ's stead. That's why they explain prophetic (and pauline) passages figuratively so they can claim it has already happened so that they can expropriate the power that the Bible says Christ has during his Millennial Kingdom.

Whether you believe that Christ will reign during a 1000 year period on the earth or not, please see that these people believe this millennial age involves THEIR RULE in stead of Christ's. The reality is that they want power; they have no regard for the word of God, what they care about is ruling the world just like every earthly despot in history.

I am reminded of these verses:

John 16:2-3 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

The pharisees in their time were THE MOST RACIST people that have ever existed. What a supreme irony that these supplanters take on the very same traits. God's judgment is an awesome thing to behold!

You, my fellow poster have a VERY, VERY distorted view of what the preterist view holds.
Just because they do not support the fallacy that to 'bless national Israel" is to be blessed", does not mean that they are racist AGAINST those of the religion of judaism OR against any race. Abraham was a Syrian and a Hebrew (wanderer) at that time. The blessing was to him individually as a result of God's calling him to faith which blessing was passed eventually to Ephraim representing the people of all nations... (Jer 31) Read also Barnabus in 75 AD on this issue.

ON the contrary... with the gospel being fulfilled that was promised to Abraham, all "races", peoples, language are on individually on equal footing and standing. The racism has been dissolved AND dissolved by God HIMSELF. Judaism/Jewry is no longer a 'race' but a talmudic/Babylonian religion.

Again, I'd welcome your comments on who the people were who were to "die" or "cease" when the Word of the prophet like Moses was to come as quoted in Deut 4, 5, 18, John 6; Acts 3.

Thanks for your awaited response.

P.S. the fingers you point at the supposed groups you mention wanting 'power" are returned four-fold in the groups of christian-zionism; talmidism; It is the religion of old babylon/Nimrod. Your claims border on the delusional..??
Did you not yet see the pagan/occultic images of old babylon in the Supreme Court buildings in Israel.?

You 'claim' to be appealing to Scripture, but you do not interact with scripture presented. ???

[Russkie]

Originally Posted by randman

No..but it does mean that you have to prove I stole it..

Put that one in your pipe and smoke it!

The Pharasiacal mentaility uses legal wrangling and argument to undermine the spirit of the law, and our friend randy seems to agree with it.

May justice come down on Izra-el with a swift hand...

And may we stop electing politicians who steal our money to give to them, so they can steal people's homes and torture them.

Outrageous that we tolerate this situation.

[Russkie]

Originally Posted by TonyG

Darn mistype. Sorry bout that; Verse 17 is the one I wished to point out.
What does the chapter associate with the starts, moon, sun not giving their light.?

Who are 'them' of vs 17.?



This chapter talks of the overthrow of Babylon by the Medes.
This was prophesied 100 plus yrs before the Israelites were even taken captive by the Babylonians.!!

In Matt 24; Jesus uses this example of sun/moon/stars being darkened during the Medes desolation of Babylon and the overthrow of power and rule of babylon by the Medes with the coming overthrow of Jerusalem and Judea by the Romans in 70 AD.

Thus the idea of the sun,moon, stars not giving their LIGHT doesn't mean that they will be physically darkened, but that, as you say, either the smoke from the desolation will cloud the sky..... or, more likely, the sun, moon, stars are symbolic of powers of rule and authority.

Either way, Jesus' association with these things in the past confirm the manner in which a foreign govt (rome) would sweep away the city and the temple at the time the temple would be destroyed... 70 AD. Again, this would show again that Matt 24 wasn't talking of the end of the "world" but the end of the mosaic covenant age and the nation.

This is consistent with the Orthodox understanding of the prophesy of end times.

The destruction happened within the generation of the disciples, as Christ predicted.

The kindgom established was the Byzantine Empire, which lasted roughly 1,000 years before the Muslims destroyed it. Byzantine law was rigid and iron straight, as predicted. This was the Empire of Christ.

Most of the Heterodox are well-intentioned, but your guesses about the meaning of the Bible are hit and miss.

If you want to plug into the true teaching, join the Orthodox Church, or at least learn about it. We are the keepers of the flame.

There is no rapture, nor will there be armageddon as you think. This is all made up nonsense based on someone's bad interpretation of the Bible.

[biochemist]

The world will be a much better place when the Myth of Israel is obliterated. God's country has no boarders. And the gated community that war profiteering built needs to stop conning Christians into thinking they are anything but wicked con men.

[greenbear]

Tony, I'm sorry if anything I posted made you believe we were involved in a debate. I've already said I am not interested in arguing with someone who claims to believe the bible yet maintains that it means something other than what it clearly says, there's no point to it. Any responses to your posts are only intended to clarify or correct a statement you've made about the dispensational or Bible version issues or to give my viewpoint on your beliefs. Of course, you have been free to do the same.

I've been a born-again Christian for twenty years and had a dispensational understanding of the scriptures for much of that time. I'm familiar with Calvinist/Preterist/Coventantist/Reconstructionist positions and I have been persuaded for years that they are wrong.

[Doge]

The land was Roman for thousands of years. The Muslims took it from the Byzantines (East Romans) and the British/Jews took it from the Muslims (Turks). Now the Muslims (Arabs) are now crying because Israel is in control.

Anyone else see the hypocrisy and double standard in all of this?

[TonyG]

Originally Posted by greenbear

Tony, I'm sorry if anything I posted made you believe we were involved in a debate. I've already said I am not interested in arguing with someone who claims to believe the bible yet maintains that it means something other than what it clearly says, there's no point to it. Any responses to your posts are only intended to clarify or correct a statement you've made about the dispensational or Bible version issues or to give my viewpoint on your beliefs. Of course, you have been free to do the same.

I've been a born-again Christian for twenty years and had a dispensational understanding of the scriptures for much of that time. I'm familiar with Calvinist/Preterist/Coventantist/Reconstructionist positions and I have been persuaded for years that they are wrong.

In my short time of understanding what is called the 'preterist' perspective, I've never known a pre-mill dispy futurist positions to stand to continue discussion when the 'end times' is shown to be the prophesied end of the mosaic covenant. When the inductive approach and it's logical reasoned conclusions are presented, the futurist usually blows up in an accusing manner and then leaves or changes the subject. They often say something similar to what you mentioned; using words such as not believing what the scripture CLEARLY s, or Certainly, or unequivocally, undoubtedly state. They often emphasize this, that and the other thing as clearly having never been fulfilled. Is it not enough to let yes be yes nor allow the Spirit to teach and to not try to sound so persuading and indoctrinating?
As mentioned, you claim to appeal to believing the scripture, but it is those scriptures which testify against and clarify the interpretation and indoctrination that you've been taught by men.

Feel free to use the overview that I gave of Romans 11 for further study and feel free to study and comment on those verses in Duet 4,5,18. John 6, Acts 3 and so forth anytime. My posts are written in a spirit of exposing a different perspective and a spirit of truth and love.

I do however sometimes get carried away with some bashing the systematic indoctrination program that has fueled the pro-Zionist (future kingdom) perspective in our churches and damaged many lives and weakened the present tense kingdom of God within you which Jesus taught.

Could you comment on one thing for me though since we must agree to not enter into discussion or 'debate' as you call it.... at your request.

I have been told that in Scofields notes in Matt 24 he says that he is defining the word Genea (generation). But when quoting strongs definition for Genea, he actually defines GENOS. You can use blue letter bible dot com if you wish to confirm the greek word definitions. I assume that you have a scofield bible: but perhaps that is taking liberties of assumption.

Either way; the things we've written stand for others review, consideration and edification and I'm glad to have particpated in the discussion. I actually am thankful to have been 'lambasted' for the testimony of Christ's truth here :) I invite you through the will of the father and the holy Spirit to join the present day kingdom of God within you through the Holy Spirit which Jesus taught.

P.S. Calvin was no a preterist in his view of revelation. He was a historicist.

[TonyG]

Originally Posted by Russkie

The kindgom established was the Byzantine Empire, which lasted roughly 1,000 years before the Muslims destroyed it. Byzantine law was rigid and iron straight, as predicted. This was the Empire of Christ.

The latter part of Dan 7 implies that the kindom of the saints of the son of man (the most High) would be 'everlasting' and 'forever' and somehow similar to that of the Roman kingdom. I take that to mean that it would be international; non-racial and based on Republic style law and statutes. This would associate with the 'higher laws' of God's incarnation and examples. For this reason the 'kingdom of God' still remains and CAN even be politically recognized by the U.S. as non-resident alien status if/when one chooses. I believe the power and dominion of the kingdom of God that the disciples and the apostles WON when judgment SAT and favor was given to the saints of the son of man and not the kingdom of oppressive law remains empowered within and to the sons/daughters Priests and kings of God.

[Russkie]

Originally Posted by TonyG

The latter part of Dan 7 implies that the kindom of the saints of the son of man (the most High) would be 'everlasting' and 'forever' and somehow similar to that of the Roman kingdom. I take that to mean that it would be international; non-racial and based on Republic style law and statutes. This would associate with the 'higher laws' of God's incarnation and examples. For this reason the 'kingdom of God' still remains and CAN even be politically recognized by the U.S. as non-resident alien status if/when one chooses. I believe the power and dominion of the kingdom of God that the disciples and the apostles WON when judgment SAT and favor was given to the saints of the son of man and not the kingdom of oppressive law remains empowered within and to the sons/daughters Priests and kings of God.

Study Orthodox teachings, you will find many useful things. You don't have to rely on guessing if you don't want to.

Good luck.

[TonyG]

Originally Posted by Russkie

Study Orthodox teachings, you will find many useful things. You don't have to rely on guessing if you don't want to.

Good luck.

Thanks, But if Dan 7 says 'forever' and 'eternal' and the Byzantine empire only lasted 1000 yrs, then it's not 'eternal', 'everlasting "LIFE"and such as would be the perpetual sons/daughters born of the Spirit as the 'seed' of Israel mentioned in Jer 31.

I consider that ruling with a Rod of Iron is the ruling from Heaven with unchangable and absolute laws of eternal life, (Ps 105) including laws of absolute truth in his spoken word and faith in Him and Mercy being the Word. Many aspects to add to this concept.

You've given something to think about for later. Will check into it.
Thanks.

[greenbear]

Major geopolitical transitions have caused some of the largest refugee migrations in the twentieth century. The Russian Revolution of 1917 caused approximately 1.5 million Russians who opposed communism to flee. One million Armenians fled Turkey between 1915-1923 to escape persecution and genocide. Following the establishment of the People's Republic of China in 1949, two million Chinese fled to Taiwan and Hong Kong. The world's largest population transfer in history occurred in 1947 when 18 million Hindus from Pakistan and Muslims from India were moved between the newly created countries of Pakistan and India. Approximately 3.7 million East Germans fled to West Germany between 1945 and 1961, when the Berlin Wall was constructed. http://geography.about.com/od/global...a/refugees.htm

There are an estimated 11-12 million refugees today (2008 data). Refugeeism is caused by war, political instability, political and religious persecution, and economic hardship. In the 1992, the world refugee population had ballooned to nearly 18 million, up from 3 million in the mid-1970's, due in part to the Balkan conflict. I haven't noticed a great deal of concern about these 11-12 million refugees from the christian anti-Semite members on this board who are outraged about the state of Israel "displacing" Palestinians. Where's the moral outrage over the atrocities visited largely on Christian Tutsis by the Muslim extremist Hutu government? Where's the outrage against the Sudanese government and the rogue Arab rebel insurgents for the hundreds of thousands who have been killed by violence, disease and malnutrition caused by the war and are still dying?

Thousands are murdered each day in other parts of the world, and dozens of US soldiers may be killed in a day in Iraq and Afghanistan and there's not as much as a peep heard from these people, but if a rock is thrown in Palestine, it's plastered all over the news media and Israel is lambasted by all and the "Israel is the Devil" posts and pictures of maps of the ME with a giant nuclear crater where Israel used to be, come full force on GIM.

Never mind that the Palestinian Arabs commit acts of terrorism against Israeli citizens on a regular basis. Don't you dare mention that the majority of Israel's Arab neighbors have called for Israel's destruction, committed untold acts of terrorism, and waged war on Israel from the beginning. Keep trying to forget that Israel is the only democratic government in the nightmare that is the Arab Muslim world.

The recent shooting at Fort Hood by a Muslim US military man of Arab descent who has in the past expressed extremist Muslim views endorsing terrorism, was actually blamed on the Jews on this forum. This is because absolutely everything bad that happens in the world is somehow the fault of the Jews.

We don't hear a balanced view of the Israeli/Palestinian issue in the media, in our schools, or from politicians. It's not PC to talk about the other side of the ME issue. The topic is a carefully managed one.

It's human nature; if a lie is repeated enough times, most people will end up believing it. So then, although most people may not actively hate Israel, they do become desensitized to the escalation of anti-semitism, including the hate-mongering seen on this forum.

When the religious and ideological bases of some people here who breathe out threatening and slaughter against the Jews are called out, they act like they are the injured party; they claim to be misunderstood and persecuted martyrs for Jesus Christ! (Who was born a Jew.) The existence of the modern state of Israel threatens their belief that they have replaced Israel. Their desperate and laughable justifications for their views are utterly destroyed. So do they seek to conform their ideas to the scriptures and the reality of a modern Jewish state? Au contraire, they become all the more agitated against the Jews. According to "Christian" anti-semites, the Jews are the "seat of Satan's power" on the earth regardless of the overwhelming evidences of Masonic and Jesuit/Black Catholic influence over hundreds and thousands of years.

I think most of us now understand that the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict isn't about a dispossessed "Palestinian" nation wanting their homeland back. Palestinian Arabs are indistinguishable from Jordanians and many other Arabs, the area was a territory of the Ottoman empire that had Arab and Jewish populations and was replaced by British mandate in 1917. Establishment of the modern Israeli state was mandated by UN resolution which included plans for the establishment of a corresponding Palestinian state. The Arabs rejected plans for a separate Palestinian state (partition), and called instead for a war to rid Palestine of Jews. Palestinian Arabs rioted, engaged in endless terror attacks, and with the active support of the Arab Legion and Arab Liberation Army, waged war on the Jews. It was not until after the unexpected Jewish victory in the Six Day War that the Arab Palestinians began to call for a "Palestinian" homeland, the very thing they had violently opposed just a few years before.

With a view towards the rising anti-semitism of the late 19th and first half or so of the 20th centuries, culminating in the Nazi Holocaust in which approximately six million Jews died, which resulted in international recognition for the humanitarian requisite for a Jewish homeland, let's move forward to a balanced view of these issues in my next posts.

[greenbear]

Census figures for the area of Palestine during that period are inexact but we can get an idea of what they were at the time. I'll include excerpts from one the best, most impartial articles I found online on the topic:

The population figures for mandatory and Turkish Palestine are of historical interest and figure in many historical debates. The Zionist claim that Palestine was "a land without a people" is challenged by pro-Palestinian historians who cite census figures showing a substantial Palestinian-Arab population by 1914. The Zionists note that most of this increase seems to have occurred after 1880, when Jews began developing Palestine. In particular, Joan Peters ("From Time Immemorial") claimed that a large proportion of the population increase among Arabs was due to immigration. Pro-Palestinian historians try to make a case that Zionist settlement had begun displacing Palestinians before 1948.

The goal of the present is to examine the claims in the light of the best available statistical data, without supporting the contentions of either side, and without any intention either to denigrate from the tragedy of Palestinian refugees or to use the data to question Jewish claims to Palestine. The moral claims of the sides should not depend on percentages of population. In practice, I am aware that the data on this page have been used to support various partisan claims. That is precisely the sort of abuse that this material is intended to fight. The major conclusion is "The nature of the data do not permit precise conclusions about the Arab population of Palestine in Ottoman and British times" Anyone who pretends otherwise is deliberately misleading you. We can reach some general conclusions - Palestine was not empty when Zionists started arriving, there was some Arab immigration as well etc. But we cannot give a precise number in any case, and even if we could, it would not constitute evidence to back any moral claims.
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Economics and Immigration - Under the British Mandate, which began after WWI, Jewish population increased due to immigration, especially in the 1930s. Arab population also increased at an exceptional rate. According to records, about 18,000 non-Jews entered Palestine between 1930 and 1939 when there were more or less reliable figures. In the same period, about 5,000 non-Jews left. This does not count illegal immigration of course, or immigration prior to 1930. Economic analyses show that by the 1930s the standard of living of Palestinian Arabs was approximately twice that of Arabs in surrounding countries, whereas in Ottoman Turkish times it was lower than in surrounding countries. Some of the farm population may have suffered economic hardship, characteristic of any industrializing and urbanizing society, but in the main, the standard of living improved, and it improved much faster than it did in surrounding countries. There is no doubt that this improvement in conditions was an attractant for immigrants as well as resulting in improved health and larger families. Additionally, British activity in building the port of Haifa during the 1920s and in operating it during WW II undoubtedly attracted at least some immigrants. However, there is no hard evidence that more than 100,000 or 200,000 (out of about 1.3 million in all of Palestine, and about 7-800,000 in the area that was to become Israel in 1948) Palestinians had immigrated to the land that was to become Israel. It is impossible to determine at present when this immigration took place. 100,000 Arabs immigrating in 1880 would have produced many more descendants by 1948 than 100,000 Arabs immigrating in 1930. However, since economic conditions did not improve until mandatory times, it is unlikely that the bulk of the immigration occurred under Turkish administration.
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Major Conclusions

1. The nature of the data do not permit precise conclusions about the Arab population of Palestine in Ottoman and British times, and the relative contributions of natural increase and immigration, imprecision in the counts and other issues.

2. Palestine was not an empty land when Zionist immigration began. The lowest estimates claim there were about 410,000 Arab Muslims and Christians in Palestine in 1893. A Zionist estimate claimed there were over 600,000 Arabs in Palestine in the 1890s. At this time, the number of Jewish immigrants to Palestine was still negligible by all accounts. It is unlikely that Palestinian immigration prior to this period was due to Zionist development. Though uncertainty exists concerning the precise numbers of Arabs living in the areas that later became Israel, it is very unlikely that the claims of Joan Peters that there were less than 100,000 Arabs living there are valid.

3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. For a detailed discussion that focuses on this myth, please refer to Zionism and its Impact.

4. Historic population data in Palestine during Ottoman times and during Mandatory times show significant discrepancies. For example, figures reported in Table A-1 for 1930 population of Arabs are about 100,000 too low according to census figures for 1931

5. It is not possible to estimate illegal Arab immigration directly, but apparently there was some immigration. The total Arab immigration to Palestine recorded or estimated by the Mandate government was in the neighborhood of 45,000. Illegal immigration that was not recorded would not register in the final population figures for 1945, because those figures were estimates. We simply do not know how many Arabs and Jews there were in Palestine before the declaration of the state of Israel. It is probable that there were about 100,000 Arab immigrants into Palestine. An unknown number may also have migrated internally, from the Arab areas in the West Bank that were formerly the centers of commercial activity and population to the coastal plain and Galilee. The Arab population increase of areas with large Jewish settlement was about 10% greater than that in areas without Jewish settlement. This effect cannot be totally separated from urbanization. A population of approximately 103,000 Bedouin (1922 estimate reported in the 1927-1929 reports of the Mandatory) may have been excluded or included in different population figures as the authorities and demographers saw fit. There is no way to know how many of these Bedouin made a permanent home in Palestine or how many became part of the city population in the course of industrialization between 1922 and 1948. However, the evidence indicates that they were in fact included in all the official population figures. This is shown by the fact that estimates of Muslim population that explicitly do not include Bedouin were significantly lower than the census figures, and by the fact that population growth is consistent with figures for natural increase if we assume that the Bedouin were included.

5. There are large discrepancies between official population figures and the number of Palestinian refugees - An analysis of population by subdistricts and villages, using the admittedly incomplete data of the Palestine Remembered Web site, shows that there were about 736,000 Muslim and Christian Arabs in the part of Palestine that was to become "Green Line Israel" in 1949. There would not have been more than 620,000 refugees in 1949 if these figures are correct, since the Israeli census showed 156,000 non-Jews living in Palestine in November 1948, of whom about 14,000 were Druze. The number of refugees reported by UNRWA in 1948 was 726,000. It might indicate that an unregistered and illegal population of 100,000 was included in the refugees, or it might be due to serious and systematic undercounting of Arab population by the Mandate authorities. McCarthy suggests that there was such undercounting, yet his figures for the total population of Palestine agree with projections based on official figures for 1945.

6. There are serious discrepancies in reporting of the number of refugees. In 1949, UNRWA reported 726,000 refugees. By 1950 they reported 914,000 according to one source (McCarthy), an increase of 26% that could not come either from births or further displacement of refugees, which were negligible.

7. The city of Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority since about 1896 - The city of Jerusalem itself there was a Jewish majority since about 1896, but probably not before. The district of Jerusalem (as opposed to the city) comprised a very wide area in Ottoman and British times, in which there was a Muslim majority. This included Jericho, Bethlehem and other towns. Within the Jerusalem district, there was a subdistrict of Jerusalem that includes many of the immediate suburbs such as Eyn Karem, Beit Zeit etc. In that subdistrict, the Jews remained a minority , with only about 52,000 out of 132,000 persons in 1931 for example.

http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm

[greenbear]

Next, the Israeli War of Independence. The media around the world through the years has increasingly stressed the very biased view of Arab Palestinian propaganda. Some here will strongly protest the inclusion of accounts from a Jewish Zionist perspective, but they were there, their viewpoint must be heard as well, if we are to finally come to a balanced view.

The Israel War of Independence or 1948 War is divided into the pre-independence period and the post-independence period.
Israel war of Independence: Partition plan
The pre-Independence civil war began shortly after the passage of UN General Assembly Resolution 181 which was supposed to partition Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab State, and an international area including Jerusalem and a large area around it. The Jews were to get about 55% of the country, though this included the Negev, which was mostly desert. As the map at right shows, the Arab and Jewish areas, which were allocated according to demographics, were intertwined. The plan was fragile, but it could perhaps have worked had the sides wanted it it work. ( Detailed Map: UN Palestine Partition Plan Map - 1947)

The Arabs rejected partition and called for a war to rid Palestine of the Jews. The British sabotaged the efforts of the UN to internationalized Jerusalem, and encouraged the Arabs to go to war, providing large quantities of arms to the Arab Legion (later the Transjordan Legion, as long as they could do so without American censure.

The Jews greeted the news of partition with joy (see: Palestine Partition - November 29, 1949 for a historic letter describing the celebrations) but it was obvious that there would be a tragic armed clash.

Riots and terror attacks began as soon as the partition plan was announced and gradually escalated. Irgun bombs exploded in Arab sections of the old city of Jerusalem and in Yaffo. In Jerusalem, the Arabs blew up the Jewish Agency and subsequently killed about 60 people in the Ben Yehuda Street Bombing in February.

In the post-independence period, there were three periods of fighting and at least two truces.

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On May 14, 1948, the Jews proclaimed the independent State of Israel, and the British withdrew from Palestine. In the following days and weeks, the armies of neighboring Arab states invaded Palestine and Israel (see map, above). The fighting was conducted in three brief periods, punctuated by cease fire agreements ( truces were declared June 11 to July 8, 1948 and July 19- October 15, 1948, and an apparently short-lived truce was declared October 22.).

While officially the Arab states were fighting according to one plan, in fact there was little coordination between them. Arab apologists make some dubious claims concerning the invasion. One claim which has some credibility is that Israel colluded in the British and Jordanian plan to annex the Arab area of Palestine to Jordan. Protocols of secret meetings between Golda Meir and King Abdullah indicate that while Israel was aware of this plan, it did not actively cooperate in it. Indeed, Israel opposed the Bernadotte Plan which envisioned such a division, and Efraim Karsh provides evidence that Israel favored a separate Arab Palestinian state (Karsh, 2000, pp 69 ff). Meir Zamir believes that the British had, at least earlier, favored a different "Greater Syria" plan, and that this was the reason both for British opposition to creation of a Jewish state and for the distrust among the Arab states (see British and French Policy in Palestine. ) But the fact is, that the annexation to Jordan of the remaining areas allotted to the Palestinian state was accomplished.

Other claims are fantastic and unfounded: that the Arab states only sought to defend Arab areas, and did not invade Jewish areas, or that, since there were no borders, there could not have been an invasion. The borders of the Jewish area, the Arab area and the international area were designated by the UN partition plan. Prior to May 15, both sides had engaged in internal civil war, with the Jews gaining the upper hand and taking over cities that were allotted to Arabs, and in particular, Jaffo, which was isolated from the rest of the Arab area. The Arab Liberation Army of Fawzi el Kaukji had infested the Galilee indiscriminately, in areas allotted to both Jews and Arabs.

But on May 15, the situation had changed. The "Jewish area" was no longer a part of a British mandate population engaged in a civil war. It was a sovereign state whose territorial borders should have been respected by member states of the United Nations. The Arab Legion that had operated under British sanction, taking Gush Etzion just before the British left, and defending Arab areas in Jerusalem, could no longer operate under those terms.

All the armies of the Arab states crossed international frontiers and entered areas that had been designated as part of the Jewish state. The Lebanese and Syrians attacked in the eastern Galilee. The Syrians took Mishmar Hayarden and tried to take both Degania and Ein Gev. The Transjordan Legion violated the borders of the international area by invading Jerusalem. They succeeded in ethnic cleansing of the Jewish quarter by the end of May (see The Ethnic Cleansing of Jerusalem) but were unsuccessful in their attempt to take western Jerusalem. The Iraqis attacked in north-central Israel about May 25, advancing in the direction of the coast near Kfar Yona, but were stopped.

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The Arab states, in large part went to war in 1948 because they had used the issue of Palestine to generate public enthusiasm for their own regimes. When the moment came, they found themselves trapped in their own rhetoric. If they did not go to war, the masses would topple them as traitors. Following the 1948 defeat, this dynamic was accelerated. Arab leaders used the Israel issue for political purposes. to maintain nationalist fervor. In Egypt and Syria, revolutions forced the failed rulers from power, promising to wiping out the "Zionist entity" and "reversing the results of 1948." They manufactured confrontations in order to mobilize support for their regimes, and competed with each other in their zeal against the Zionists. However, as Nasser did in 1967, they found that once they had started a sequence of events they could not control it. They had trapped themselves in their own rhetoric, and the masses now demanded action.
http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Wa...dependence.htm

[sky]

REMEMBER OUR USS LIBERTY ALWAYS, AND OUR SAILORS WHO WERE MURDERED AND WOUNDED BY israel. THE SHIP HAD BEEN ATTACKED FOR AN HOUR +, israel KNEW PERFECTLY WELL THAT THEY WERE TRYING TO SINK AN AMERICAN SHIP WITH AMERICAN SAILORS ONBOARD. SO, Palestine is JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF what they do best ,CAUSE CHAOS AND BLOODSHED. THEY SAY THEIR G-D GAVE IT to them--- RUSSIAN KHAZARS, PLEASE, GO back to where you all came from,( MOTHER russia or Khazaria) and leave the Arabs alone. THE KHAZARS call themselves SEMITES , ANOTHER SICKENING AND DISGUSTING LIE.

[Angra Mania]

Originally Posted by sky

REMEMBER OUR USS LIBERTY ALWAYS, AND OUR SAILORS WHO WERE MURDERED AND WOUNDED BY israel. THE SHIP HAD BEEN ATTACKED FOR AN HOUR +, israel KNEW PERFECTLY WELL THAT THEY WERE TRYING TO SINK AN AMERICAN SHIP WITH AMERICAN SAILORS ONBOARD. SO, Palestine is JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF what they do best ,CAUSE CHAOS AND BLOODSHED. THEY SAY THEIR G-D GAVE IT to them--- RUSSIAN KHAZARS, PLEASE, GO back to where you all came from,( MOTHER russia or Khazaria) and leave the Arabs alone. THE KHAZARS call themselves SEMITES , ANOTHER SICKENING AND DISGUSTING LIE.

Way to do way more harm than good. If all the stupid anti-semites just stfu, maybe progress could be made in Israel/Palestinian relations. As it stands people like you make it possible for Zionists to claim all people who criticize the State of Israel as anti-semites.