Newsflash: Millions line up to return gas grills today

[Hi Ho]

The History Channel re aired it's special on 911 yesterday, describing how the structural steel in the towers melted from a kerosene and paper fire.

Store managers across the country brace for near riot conditions today as millions of Americans are expected to return their defective gas grills which have steel in their grates.

Spokesman for the nations largest retail chain stated "there is no reason for panic, most hamburger grills are only exposed to direct flame for 15 minutes at a time"

One irate customer, "Bubba" from Nacidoces Texas interviewed in the parking lot line up that went around the block at Walmart had this to say: "We do some serious grillin down here and really load up the steaks, sometimes our partys go on all weekend, like when UT wins one."
Stay tuned for video at 8:00

[Large Sarge]

Pathetic isn't it, I see some of those shows listed today, and I just shake my head....

the level of propaganda and programming here in the U.S. is just unreal....


"free Press" should be redefined...


Shrubs state of the union ought to be good for some laughs also,

another round of cheap bullying on the worlds stage....

for those who missed it....

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/presaddress.html

[TheKingsSon]

Originally Posted by Large Sarge

Pathetic isn't it, I see some of those shows listed today, and I just shake my head....

the level of propaganda and programming here in the U.S. is just unreal....


"free Press" should be redefined...


Shrubs state of the union ought to be good for some laughs also,

another round of cheap bullying on the worlds stage....

for those who missed it....

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/presaddress.html

I think the first post is a joke ?? NO ?? It HAS to be!

[Hi Ho]

Last night's expose was, to use the words of Fire Engineering magazine, the 125-year old journal of record among America’s fire engineers and firefighters, “a half-baked farce.”

Their "experts" were New York Times reporters and they had to resort to many tear jerking interviews with survivors and relatives during the show to keep the logic clouding emotion levels up while administering their propaganda.

It made me sick.
Look for a similar hatchet job on the upcoming flight 93 movie that they promoted the heck out of during every break.
They are worried. I can only hope it is for good reason.

[Large Sarge]

Originally Posted by TheKingsSon

I think the first post is a joke ?? NO ?? It HAS to be!

]
Yes the Grill story is facetious....

I was only agreeing with Hi Ho's opinion on our Govt controlled media here in the U.S.

Science never even enters these "Documentaries"....

Very sad

[GOLD DUCK]

QWAK,IF the EMOTION level drops and LOGIC,clear THINKING and questioning authorities results, the TRUTH will come out and the SHIT realy WILL hit the FAN!

It can get very DANGEROUS trying to be phoney PUPET leader if the HERD starts to STAMPEAD! Being out in front of THAT gets REAL UGLY, real FAST!

When the MOB starts to build a GILOTEAN in Washington D. C., it would likely be a SIGN that ALL government officials had better GET out of town --FAST!:chat:

the DUCK

[Halophyte]

Combustion temperature depends on air/fuel ratios. Air/fuel (even jp4 or k-1) combustion temps can easily melt mild steel structures; I melt mild steel with air/fuel mixtures all the time. Mild steel is drillable, malleable steel with high tensile strength. Air/fuel ratios depend upon CFM (cubic feet per minute) of air forced across the fuel. To compute the volume of air induced or drafted into that building fire one needs to know the cross section area of the impact vs. the velocity of the air induced by winds and drafted by chimney into the building wreckage. Goodness knows there was enough fuel but I've seen little data on the draft (or should I say blow torch draft at that altitude and area?) forced/drawn into the blaze.

The collapse of the towers could be considered the domino effect of individual collapsing floors, each floor adding its weight of inertia (mass) to the collective mass of the collapse function. The four corner vetical steel supports (the metal with the least exposure to high temps) held the collapsing floor debris together like a funnel - focusing the energy downward to the next floor. The structural steel in the building was designed for support of the weight of each individual floor plus its tensile strength. The superstructure of those individual tower floors were not designed to absorb the inertia and mass of the floors collapsing above it.

The towers did not fall to the side like a toppling tower; the impact was not at the top sections of the towers, NOT the bottom. The so called photo "evidence" of placed charges were in reality popping bolts (exceeding shear strength) as the perimeter box girder structure was ripped apart by the weight of collapsing floors above, this energy is easily transferred along the vertical axis of the box frame well below the collapsing floors above - notice in all the docu-drama's reporting photo "evidence" of "charges going off" were shown below the collapsing building but NEVER above the impact zone.

The dynamics of a tower collapse are much more complex that your gas grill.


.

[Large Sarge]

Originally Posted by Halophyte

Combustion temperature depends on air/fuel ratios. Air/fuel (even jp4 or k-1) combustion temps can easily melt mild steel structures; I melt mild steel with air/fuel mixtures all the time. Mild steel is drillable, malleable steel with high tensile strength. Air/fuel ratios depend upon CFM (cubic feet per minute) of air forced across the fuel. To compute the volume of air induced or drafted into that building fire one needs to know the cross section area of the impact vs. the velocity of the air induced by winds and drafted by chimney into the building wreckage. Goodness knows there was enough fuel but I've seen little data on the draft (or should I say blow torch at that altitude and area?) forced into the blaze.

The collapse of the towers could be considered the domino effect of individual collapsing floors, each floor adding its weight of inertia (mass) to the collective mass of the collapse function. The structural steel in the building was designed for support of the weight of each individual floor plus its tensile strength. The superstructure of those individual tower floors were not designed to absorb the inertia and mass of the floors collapsing above it.

The towers did not fall to the side like a toppling tower; the impact was not at the top sections of the towers, NOT the bottom. The so called photo "evidence" of placed charges were in reality popping bolts (exceeding shear strength) as the perimeter box girder structure was ripped apart by the weight of collapsing floors above, this energy is easily transferred along the vertical axis of the box frame well below the collapsing floors above - notice in all the docu-drama's reporting photo "evidence" of charges going off were shown below the collapsing building but NEVER above the impact zone.


.

And that explains WTC 7?

Please Halo, you seem like a smart guy.....

"pancake effect"
"dominoes"
"blah Blah"

I can start a demolition company, and save a fortune with wiring explosives, by just getting some drums of jet fuels and placing them 2/3 of the way up the building, and let "the domino effect" take over.....

think of my saved labor costs, I could kill all the competition out there....

[Halophyte]

Originally Posted by Large Sarge

And that explains WTC 7?

I was not discussing WTC 7.

Originally Posted by Large Sarge

Please Halo, you seem like a smart guy.....

"pancake effect"
"dominoes"
"blah Blah"

No “pancake effect” - whatever that means. No “blah Blah” either. Just 30 years experience in what you might consider ‘heavy’ engineering. I am not in the demolition business but I participate in demolition on very large scale projects.

Ever watch Modern Marvels ? That’s me buddy.

It’s called basis Newtonian physics.

To understand how the towers fell you might want to read up on how they were built.

Originally Posted by Large Sarge

I can start a demolition company, and save a fortune with wiring explosives, by just getting some drums of jet fuels and placing them 2/3 of the way up the building, and let "the domino effect" take over.....

think of my saved labor costs, I could kill all the competition out there....

But that would not be a controlled demo. Neither was the towers.


.

[bigjon]

Originally Posted by Halophyte

Combustion temperature depends on air/fuel ratios. Air/fuel (even jp4 or k-1) combustion temps can easily melt mild steel structures; I melt mild steel with air/fuel mixtures all the time. Mild steel is drillable, malleable steel with high tensile strength. Air/fuel ratios depend upon CFM (cubic feet per minute) of air forced across the fuel. To compute the volume of air induced or drafted into that building fire one needs to know the cross section area of the impact vs. the velocity of the air induced by winds and drafted by chimney into the building wreckage. Goodness knows there was enough fuel but I've seen little data on the draft (or should I say blow torch draft at that altitude and area?) forced/drawn into the blaze.

The collapse of the towers could be considered the domino effect of individual collapsing floors, each floor adding its weight of inertia (mass) to the collective mass of the collapse function. The four corner vetical steel supports (the metal with the least exposure to high temps) held the collapsing floor debris together like a funnel - focusing the energy downward to the next floor. The structural steel in the building was designed for support of the weight of each individual floor plus its tensile strength. The superstructure of those individual tower floors were not designed to absorb the inertia and mass of the floors collapsing above it.

The towers did not fall to the side like a toppling tower; the impact was not at the top sections of the towers, NOT the bottom. The so called photo "evidence" of placed charges were in reality popping bolts (exceeding shear strength) as the perimeter box girder structure was ripped apart by the weight of collapsing floors above, this energy is easily transferred along the vertical axis of the box frame well below the collapsing floors above - notice in all the docu-drama's reporting photo "evidence" of "charges going off" were shown below the collapsing building but NEVER above the impact zone.

The dynamics of a tower collapse are much more complex that your gas grill.


.

The draft (or lack of it) you mention is very noticeable as is the black smoke of all of the unburned carbon, which only happens in a low temperature oxygen starved fire. Just like the soot that emits from the end of your torch as you shut off the oxygen.

On 911, all we saw was black smoke.

If the falling towers were busting rivets the fall would not be as orderly and nowhere near free fall speed that did occur.

[Halophyte]

Originally Posted by bigjon

The draft you mention is very noticable as is the black smoke of all of the unburned carbon, which only happens in a low tempature oxygen fire.Just like the soot that emits from the end of your torch as you shut off the oxygen.

Except for the hundereds of thousands of tons of plastic products among the combustables that emit dark black smoke.

Originally Posted by bigjon

On 911, all we saw was black smoke.

Carpeting, computers, furniture, cubical dividers, vinyl ..... Plastics. Not all the fuel that burnt was JP-4 or K-1. This was not an excess of fuel it was an excess of complex hydrocarbons converting back into its base petrol chemical form.

Originally Posted by bigjon

If the falling towers were busting rivets the fall would not be as orderly and nowhere near free fall speed that did occur.

They use few rivets these days, instead they use large cross section hardened bolts and nuts with specific tinsel/shear strengths - rated at those specific failure pressures. Some of these bolts weigh in at over 25 lbs each. These bolts are torked at ranges of 10,000 to 1000,000 ft lbs. When they break their shear or tensil limits - it’s like a cannon going off.

Understanding the structure understands the collapse.

I am not naive enough to believe WTC 7 was a typical collapse, I think it was brought down after the fact, seperate from the WTC towers.

I'm also not foolish enough to allow docu-dramas to eliminate the laws of physics.


.

[Large Sarge]

not to mention the molten slag in the basement of the WTC towers,
or satellite images of the basements showing the temperature still very very hot days and days afterwards....

(thousands of degrees hot)

like I said earlier, you are a smart fellow, no one is saying otherwise, but please look at the big picture....

I am sure there is a small chance that just the right wind direction, and amount of fuel could theoretically collapse a few floors in the buildings,

but to do it to both buildings?

pretty big "coincidence"

it was demolition....

[Large Sarge]

so are you really supporting the Govt story?
That jet fuel destroyed the WTC?

is that what you are saying?

[Blue_pill_envy]

Halophyte,

“I melt mild steel with air/fuel mixtures all the time”

You don’t do it with a free burning hydrocarbon…….you’d be the first.

“Goodness knows there was enough fuel”

Could you provide any data that supports that?....because you would be the first.

“The four corner vetical steel supports”

There were over 260 vertical steel columns that surrounded those buildings…..with 47 central core columns…….how did they “fall” if they were a “funnel?

“popping bolts”?

Now that’s what I call one hell of a “popping bolt”.

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1138636442

..

[Halophyte]

Originally Posted by Large Sarge

not to mention the molten slag in the basement of the WTC towers,
or satellite images of the basements showing the temperature still very very hot days and days afterwards....

(thousands of degrees hot)

Considering the enormous energy released in the collapse, I don't see why there wouldn't be molten slag all over the ruins after the collapse. Considering the volume and mass of the structure I'm also not surprised to hear about the temperatures days or weeks after the collapse. It's all a function of energy and mass. The larger the mass/energy released by the weight of the collapse, the greater the latent heat that remains.

Originally Posted by Large Sarge

like I said earlier, you are a smart fellow, no one is saying otherwise, but please look at the big picture...

The political picture or the mechanics of the collapse ?

Originally Posted by Large Sarge

I am sure there is a small chance that just the right wind direction, and amount of fuel could theoretically collapse a few floors in the buildings,

but to do it to both buildings?

Not a few floors, all the floors, they are not designed to absorb the energy of collapsing floors above. Collapse is a chain reaction of energy released vs., energy absorbed. That's how controlled demos are done; they rely upon the same principals of inertia and energy. So they won't need a nuke to bring down a building.

Both building were designed the same, impacted the same, at roughly the same area, why would they not collapse in the same fashion? Logic dictates they would.

Originally Posted by Large Sarge

pretty big "coincidence"

it was demolition....

Agreed. These buildings were demo'ed by impact of aircraft. On purpose.


.

[Halophyte]

Originally Posted by Large Sarge

so are you really supporting the Govt story?
That jet fuel destroyed the WTC?

is that what you are saying?

No, the building were demo'ed by aircraft impact, fuel, air and collapse funtion by design of the building. They are skyscrapers, not airport runways.


.

[Large Sarge]

watch the analysis

Eric Hufschmid provides expert analysis of the suspicious collapses of World Trade Center towers and other aspects of 9/11 in this 40-minute segment of his video documentary.

video: windows media at 25.7 mebibytes (download torrent)
If you have not yet seen Eric Hufschmid's "Painful Deceptions," you are not yet awake, my friends. See the 40-minute segment here on Indymedia for crucial analysis of the suspicious collapses/explosions on 9/11.
www.911forthetruth.com/

[Halophyte]

Originally Posted by Blue_pill_envy

Halophyte,

You don’t do it with a free burning hydrocarbon…….you’d be the first.

Ever use an Ox Acetylene torch ? Free burning is a funtion of static pressure, either from induction or a pressurized bottle. By volume K-1 or JP-4 has much higher BTU content than bottled gas.

Originally Posted by Blue_pill_envy

Could you provide any data that supports that?....because you would be the first.”

True, besides the aircraft fuel, the building's combustable contents are not available to me. Temperature of combustion is not controlled by fuel alone.

Combustion is 15 to 18 parts air. There was more than enough air to bring temperature above the limits of metal expansion. Metal expands as its heated, this can exceed the shear limits of bolt tork specs. Heated metal expands at an alarming rate.

You do not have to melt steel for a box steel frame to fail.

This is always overlooked by the docu-drama "experts". I work in the nuclear energy field. Tork specs are critical to heated metals. If these specs are not used the heated metal will exceed the limits and it WILL break the bolts. Period.

It only requires a few hundred degrees in temperature to exceed the tork specs and shear/break the bolts.

No questions about it.

Originally Posted by Blue_pill_envy

There were over 260 vertical steel columns that surrounded those buildings…..with 47 central core columns…….how did they “fall” if they were a “funnel?.

They did not "fall" they exceeded their tensile/shear limits, by first superheating the steel causing expansion and by the pressures of the collapse. A chain reaction of collapse. The box structure held the perimeter of the collapse together as it imploded. The weight of each floors contents, concrete, steel etc, accelerated the collapse of floors in the implosion.

Once the collapse funtion begins it cannot be stopped.

Big Blue was one of the largest cranes ever built, once it exceeded its structural limits it imploded, no heat was required. Onced it began to fall nothing could stop it.

Originally Posted by Blue_pill_envy

Now that’s what I call one hell of a “popping bolt”.

Looks like a blow out to me, compression blows out a weaker point as the collapse progressed.

Notice the "explosions" are never above the impact zone.

.

[G-khan]

There is no sense trying to argue any point other than there was a conspiracy here with those that are looking for one. They believe there were demolition teams and drone airplanes and the original aircraft and passengers were carted away someplace and killed or maybe still held captive. My guess is there would need to be hundreds if not thousands involved in their theory.. Its all bunk - now watch all the upset conspiracy guys get mad hehehehe

A bunch of pissed off arabs did it and they tried one time before with no collapse. If that had been successful they would have said that was also a conspiracy - 1994 I believe. You can not have an explosion - for that matter even the weather and volcanos erupting all evil plans. If a meteor hit and destroyed a city today they would claim it was not a meteor.. blah blah blah

[keehah]

Sorry, the Twin Towers fell on their oun. Before I had a lacky tech job I was a millwright. Steel is as soft as butter at the right temperature. A few hours in a fire is more than enough.

In the larger picture, notice lately how this twin tower demolition consipracy gets posted more than the much stronger evidence suggesting that 911 was aided and abetted by some powerfull Americians. I smell a disinformation campain: push the crap to hide the real goods. Sarge if your not part of the 'problem' Focus on WTC7 or Cheney's war games that morning that caused the confusion allowing the pissed off arabs to operate without interferece.

I'm glad Flight 93 TV movie comes on tonight. Now everyone will learn that it was shot down by a missle right?

[Hi Ho]

The so called experts on the debunking websites are great at picking apart isolated pieces of the demolition theory but they refuse to view the whole picture and the chain of coincidences that get more and more improbable as they pile up.

Halo, you seem convinced. Please explain to me how the pancaking debris from the floors above balances itself perfectly, without falling off the sides, so that it can exert the needed force on the stronger and stronger support beams closer to the base of the building. It seems to me that during the collapse senario that you describe, the lighter perimeter beams would fail before the much stronger core causing the floors to slant and shed debris outward.

While you're at it, don't forget to address the freefall speed of the buildings and where all that extra energy came from.
Alien time space compression technology perhaps?

[bigjon]

Originally Posted by G-khan

There is no sense trying to argue any point other than there was a conspiracy here with those that are looking for one. They believe there were demolition teams and drone airplanes and the original aircraft and passengers were carted away someplace and killed or maybe still held captive. My guess is there would need to be hundreds if not thousands involved in their theory.. Its all bunk - now watch all the upset conspiracy guys get mad hehehehe

A bunch of pissed off arabs did it and they tried one time before with no collapse. If that had been successful they would have said that was also a conspiracy - 1994 I believe. You can not have an explosion - for that matter even the weather and volcanos erupting all evil plans. If a meteor hit and destroyed a city today they would claim it was not a meteor.. blah blah blah

So, there was a conspiracy here, only an Arab one and what did they gain?:withstupi

[Hi Ho]

Originally Posted by G-khan

There is no sense trying to argue any point other than there was a conspiracy here with those that are looking for one. They believe there were demolition teams and drone airplanes and the original aircraft and passengers were carted away someplace and killed or maybe still held captive. My guess is there would need to be hundreds if not thousands involved in their theory.. Its all bunk - now watch all the upset conspiracy guys get mad hehehehe

A bunch of pissed off arabs did it and they tried one time before with no collapse. If that had been successful they would have said that was also a conspiracy - 1994 I believe. You can not have an explosion - for that matter even the weather and volcanos erupting all evil plans. If a meteor hit and destroyed a city today they would claim it was not a meteor.. blah blah blah

Most of the hundreds invloved thought they were participating in one of the many drills that day. Teams were compartmentalized, need to know basis. We are not talking about that many people. A lot of intimidation can be brought to bear on the rest if these are the type of people we are dealing with.

[Halophyte]

Originally Posted by Hi Ho

The so called experts on the debunking websites are great at picking apart isolated pieces of the demolition theory but they refuse to view the whole picture and the chain of coincidences that get more and more improbable as they pile up.

To the untrained eye anything is possible.

Originally Posted by Hi Ho

Halo, you seem convinced.

Convinced of what ? A building collapsing ? Yes, I am convinced they collapsed.

Originally Posted by Hi Ho

Please explain to me how the pancaking debris from the floors above balances itself perfectly, without falling off the sides,

STOP - There was milions of tons of debris that fell outside of the building perimeter.

Originally Posted by Hi Ho

so that it can exert the needed force on the stronger and stronger support beams closer to the base of the building. It seems to me that during the collapse senario that you describe, the lighter perimeter beams would fail before the much stronger core causing the floors to slant and shed debris outward.

The lowest, strongest beams were founded 5 floors below the ground, Enough to support their twisted bent remains above. There was no straight peice of structural metal left.

The core of the building collapsed concentrating the energy within the center of the collapse. Simple demo effects relied upon by demo experts. They rely on the design of the structure to do the work.

Originally Posted by Hi Ho

While you're at it, don't forget to address the freefall speed of the buildings and where all that extra energy came from.

What is "freefall speed" ?

What "extra energy" besides the aircraft impact and the potential energy stored in the buildings structure ?

Who measured this energy ?

Where is the data ?

Originally Posted by Hi Ho

Alien time space compression technology perhaps?

Insert digressions here.

[honu5050]

the magic bolt

[bigjon]

My trained eye saw a low temp black smoke fire, that couldn't heat concrete fireproofed steel columns to a point where they would fail. Kevin Ryan thinks so too.

And yes I have run a torch and cut steel, welded steel, and there is no soot when this is being done.

[Halophyte]

Originally Posted by honu5050

the magic bolt

Nothing magical about bolt tork/shear/tensile limits ...... exceed the limits and see what happens.


__________________________________________________ ______________

If you can't understand physics, conspiracy becomes a viable option.

[Halophyte]

Originally Posted by bigjon

My trained eye saw a low temp black smoke fire, that couldn't heat concrete fireproofed steel columns to a point where they would fail. Kevin Ryan thinks so too.

Ageed, low temp black smoke fires don't melt steel. How about the higher temp infernal that was warping/swelling/expanding close tolarence metals ?

Originally Posted by bigjon

And yes I have run a torch and cut steel, welded steel, and there is no soot when this is being done.

I'm sure you're not melting plastics, vinyl and carpeting while you're cutting steel either.

[Large Sarge]

low carbon steel does not shatter when "melted by fire"

Fire does not shatter steel....

Explosives do

Watch the program...

[Halophyte]

Originally Posted by Large Sarge

low carbon steel does not shatter when "melted by fire"

Fire does not shatter steel....

True, it expands and warps steel - exceeds tolerances.

Originally Posted by Large Sarge

Explosives do

Watch the program...

Explosions do swell/warp/expand steel to threashold limits of it's fasteners.

Read the AMSI specs of structural steel supports. Watch what happends when the limits are reached for the fasteners. Overtork the head bolts on an engine and run it up to operating temp and see what happends to the head bolts. Better yet, just over temp the engine by a few hundred degress and see what happends to the head bolts.

This is a no brainer.

.